JJ

[crunchy1]

Both Villians are relatively unknown. I've got stats - but only from about 4 orbits.

UTG+1 is a LAG (55/12/1). I've seen him show down some pretty weak holdings that he's been somewhat aggressive with after the flop - more so than I would've expected from only a 1AF.

MP3 is more of the fishy-type (55/0/.75). I haven't seen anything he's shown down. My best read is that the call button is his best friend.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks.

River: (7.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero...

What do you think so far? What's my plan for the rest of the hand?

[Bill C]

With a third player in the hand, even if he is a fish, and with all the possibilities on this board, I think I'd just call here and accept the overcall from the fish.
bc

[thejameser]

for the range i gave him you are a huge dog. if you think he would play QJ or Q10 or some crap this way you could call. against a typical player you are not good enough here to merit a call. that said, you know his wtsd and w$sd %'s and you have seen what he has shown down so i would call or fold based on previous hands.

[sean c]

My question is the flop. What are your toughts behind the call? Peel and fold the turn UI? Villian has basically played his hand like he has a king you beat almost nothing on the river and your not closing the action but given the fact that lags love to bluff when shown weakness and the fact that you will probably never get the fish to fold a hand that beats you i see no reason to raise so i would probably call hoping to pick off a missed straight draw from the lag. The flop and turn are the interesting streets here IMO.

In order
Flop: 1.Folding 2.Calling 3.Raising
Turn: 1.Checking 2.Folding 3.Raising
River: 1.Folding 2.Raising 3.Calling
<font color="blue">
I think if you're not going to fold on the river, you have to raise. </font>

EDIT: See below for revision.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
In order
Flop: 1.Folding 2.Calling 3.Raising
Turn: 1.Checking 2.Folding 3.Raising
River: 1.Folding 2.Raising 3.Calling
<font color="blue">
I think if you're not going to fold on the river, you have to raise. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I gonna have to say i completely disagree with all 3 streets so please explain.

[ QUOTE ]
so i would probably call hoping to pick off a missed straight draw from the lag.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the exact reason you should raise.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In order
Flop: 1.Folding 2.Calling 3.Raising
Turn: 1.Checking 2.Folding 3.Raising
River: 1.Folding 2.Raising 3.Calling
<font color="blue">
I think if you're not going to fold on the river, you have to raise. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I gonna have to say i completely disagree with all 3 streets so please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop
As you rightly say, the LAG is representing a K. If you believe him, or that the guy behind has a K, you should fold.
If you don't believe he has a K, there is a very good chance he has overcards, there is only 2, A and Q. If he's donking with them and you're not going to fold him, what are you trying to fold in MP3's hand?
I call if I'm going to continue.

Turn
Taking a second look at it. Bet/folding is a much better option. I may have been clouded by wanting to fold the flop.

River
Again, my judgement may have been slightly skewed by wanting to fold the flop. So folding got the edge.
But taking a second look, raising is probably the best option of the three. You gave the answer yourself:

[ QUOTE ]
hoping to pick off a missed straight draw from the lag.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has donked a missed straight draw, you desparately want to get rid of MP3 who could quite easily fold a better hand faced with the river scare card.

[Aces McGee]

Hi Crunchy

I think I'd rather bet the turn than call the river.

-McGee

[crunchy1]

I'd just like to interject a couple comments...

I'd give you the WSD%/W$SD% - but over 40 hands they're really not worth much. Suffice to say that neither of these guys are folding a better hand than my Jacks at any point. I'm 95% confident that this hand is going to showdown.

I see a number of comments referring to "if I believe he has" or "he's representing". These guys are LOOSE. They are likely playing 2 cards. The LAG could be betting with 2 cards and the fish can be calling with 2 cards.

It's very hard to specifically put either of these guys on a small hand range. We shouldn't be discussing the possibility that they hold one card (i.e. the K or the A) - we should be discussing the weight of the probability of holding one of these cards against the rest of the hands in an assigned range.

[Redd]

So what was your logic with the flop call? This seems like the worst of the 3 options to me.

[gopnik]

so, why not raise the flop and charge the fish behind you?
I mean, HU the call is OK, but I am raising this flop with a loose player behind me.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
I am raising this flop with a loose player behind me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

[sean c]

Hey Crunchy i like the flop call but i still don't understand the turn check. You have 0% FE if you raise the flop and you open yourself up to a 3-bet from the lagtard which tells you the same thing that his original bet did. It means he has two cards.

[ReadyEddie]

I dont like this flop call at all.

you're hand is very vulnerable to UTG's holdings, any A or Q and you're definately toast.

I think its very clear raise or fold on that flop. Theres a good chance that UTG is just donk betting. I think with a raise we put the preassure on him and represent a K. It doesnt matter if MP calls or not, hopefully he'll fold, but if he doesnt theres still a good chance you can get a free turn if you want it because MP doesnt seem that aggresive. And if you raise and get 3 bet you know exactly where you stand and can let this go on the turn. So i raise the flop and bet again the turn if i get an OESD or J, check/fold any overs and bet/fold any safe cards to try to get a free showdown.

[sean c]

Crunchy did you poker stove your turn equity? I am at work so i can't.

If so what range of hands did you give them?

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Crunchy i like the flop call but i still don't understand the turn check.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the turn check just added a whole crap-load of hands to both these Villians that I'm now behind. I was planning to check/fold the turn.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
you're hand is very vulnerable to UTG's holdings, any A or Q and you're definately toast.

[/ QUOTE ]
Guys! UTG is a 55/12. He's raising A LOT more hands than just cards above a Ten.

[ QUOTE ]
I think its very clear raise or fold on that flop. Theres a good chance that UTG is just donk betting.

[/ QUOTE ]
So if I raise I get 3-bet by a better hand, get called by marginal hands whose equity is probably very close to mine or fold out the worst hands that were just taking a shot but, may have continued putting in money with the worst hand on either the turn or river. If I do get 3-bet I probably call that bet and then fold the turn unless I catch one of my two outs - which by the way, might make me second best on that board. Of course anytime I fold to the UTG Villian there's a reasonable chance that I'm folding the best hand as he's certainly capable of bluff/semi-bluff 3-betting the flop and continuing on the turn. I would consider a raise if I thought I had a chance of folding out MP3 - but I just didn't see that happening. If MP3 can cold-call 3 PF - he's going to call 2 on a drawish flop.

I think raising is the worst of the 3 options.

[ QUOTE ]
I think with a raise we put the preassure on him and represent a K. It doesnt matter if MP calls or not, hopefully he'll fold, but if he doesnt theres still a good chance you can get a free turn if you want it because MP doesnt seem that aggresive.

[/ QUOTE ]
These players are not giving thought to my hand so attempting to "represent" something to them is a pretty worthless ploy IMO. You suggest that I raise in hopes that he'll fold. What hands do I want him to fold here? Why would I take a free turn card if I got it?

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
So if I raise I get 3-bet by a better hand, get called by marginal hands whose equity is probably very close to mine or fold out the worst hands that were just taking a shot but, may have continued putting in money with the worst hand on either the turn or river.

[/ QUOTE ]

But these guys are both very loose. Why can't you expect them to pay off with a wide range of marginal holdings here? It would be nice to give the LP 2 bets to draw with or make a possibly bad fold, and given the wide hand ranges these guys could have you probably have the equity for a value-raise.

[gopnik]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am raising this flop with a loose player behind me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

[/ QUOTE ]


You don't have odds to draw and if you think you are ahead you should raise and [ QUOTE ]
charge the fish behind you

[/ QUOTE ]