HU hand vs. Dreamclown

[ggbman]

Literally first hand. He opens in the SB, i 3 bet A3o, he calls. Flop is 663. I bet, he raises, i call. Turn is another 6 and i check call. River was some dud like and 8 and i bet/call. We like?

I was going to lead or c/r most turns, but when the 3rd 6 came i wanted to keep hands like 45 and 57 around to potentiall bluff at some point. Also, given his action, is betting the river here sound? I am obviously never folding to a raise.

[sthief09]

i dont necessarily think hes folding a hand like 45 or 57 on the turn, even to a c/r, and hes going to pay off with A high soemtimes too i think. id pull teh trigger on the turn.

[Jeff W]

I would call pre flop, but if I had 3-bet pre, I'd 3-bet the flop.

I think you should check/raise turn. If he folds 45 or 57, he is making a FTOP mistake.

[cartman]

I am probably not qualified to respond here, but I will give it a shot. I don't know what caliber of player Dreamclown is. I feel like a deer in headlights trying to decide which line is best. The fact that he did not cap preflop but then raised the flop leads me to believe that he probably doesn't have and Ace because he has to know that you aren't going to fold and Ace. If I put myself in his shoes with a medium to weak Ace high, I would rather let you keep the lead because I will never make you fold a better hand. With a stronger Ace I can see him raising the flop for value, but his failure to cap preflop makes that seem unlikely.

So it looks like to me he either has a little (including draws) or a lot (a pair or better). Maybe with T high for instance he may decide to try to push you off of Q or J high, but given that you 3-bet preflop he has to know that you have a K, an Ace, or a pair pretty often here so that scenario seems somewhat unlikely. But if he does have one of these nothing hands I think you let him keep betting. With a pot size of 5BB prior to the turn betting, we should probably be pretty indifferent as to whether we want him to fold or to keep betting, but if there is any chance he will fire again on the river with a worse hand than ours I think we definitely do not want him to fold. Playing the turn and river passively obviously save us chips when he is in fact in front or passes us on the river.

I guess overall I think checking the river may be best.

Where am I going wrong?

Thanks,
Cartman

[baronzeus]

(I'm not sure why you were playing him HU. You probably know your edge was really small if in fact you had an edge.)

[mscags]

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I don't know what caliber of player Dreamclown is.

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Dreamclown can be found quite often trying to start a 500-1K game on PR

[ggbman]

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(I'm not sure why you were playing him HU. You probably know your edge was really small if in fact you had an edge.)

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Realistically, given the amount of HU experience he has, the chance of me having a long term edge against this guy is very minute. I discussed this with BK as well. Basically, i really feel on top of my game right now, and i have been trying to polish my skills in various areas of Hold-em, including NL, short-handed NL, and recently HU limit. Basically, this guy is supposed to be one of the best there is. He was playing 500-1000 ealier in the night, and i felt like if i could play him at 1/2, it would be a good gage of how my game is progressing, and i could potentially learn from the experience.

Also, the fact that I have observed his play but he has absolutley no clue who i am gives me back some of what i lack in experience. Basically, i don't think my long term expectation of playing a few hundred hands with him is so bad that i couldn't take away enough to warrant the experience. Furthermore, while i may not be of his calibur, i'm also not a total slouch and there is a chance i will actually make some $$$, which fortuantley ended up happening.

I havent played with him enough to know tons about his play, but basically he is generally solid and very aggressive, so you have to be ready to scrap with him. I felt a key factor in playing him would be to control the # of bets going in on weakish draws and multi-street bluffs, because his HU experience gives him an advantage in these situations. My objective was to see if i could moderate the tempo to some degree and not let it turn into the kind of game in which he would likely thrive.

[Subfallen]

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I don't know what caliber of player Dreamclown is.

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Dreamclown can be found quite often trying to start a 500-1K game on PR

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where he is frequently sitting with $300k

[ggbman]

Which isn't really encouraging, but it's not intimaitdating either. I'm sure many of the opponents i play have bigger BR's than i do, but this can be a factor of them playing for much longer and having the time to put in omre hours since they don't have to go to school as well.

[tongni]

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if in fact you had an edge

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lol

[ggbman]

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if in fact you had an edge

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lol

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Since i already addressed why i am playing, why don't we skip the wise ass stuff and have some insight to the hand?

[tongni]

Ok, fine.

[ QUOTE ]
River was some dud like and 8 and i bet/call. We like?

I was going to lead or c/r most turns, but when the 3rd 6 came i wanted to keep hands like 45 and 57 around to potentiall bluff at some point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your turn and river play are inconsistent. I expect this river to get bet like 80-90% of the time. I would check call or checkraise having gotten to the river like you did. Depends on how the game has been going.

[ALL1N]

Not CR'ing this turn when given the opportunity is criminal IMO.

[ALL1N]

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i wanted to keep hands like 45 and 57 around to potentiall bluff at some point

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BTW, letting him draw to 6 outs is almost worth the "bluff bet" that you may or may not be getting.

[cartman]

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i wanted to keep hands like 45 and 57 around to potentiall bluff at some point

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BTW, letting him draw to 6 outs is almost worth the "bluff bet" that you may or may not be getting.

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Do you mean the pot is big enough that even if we knew he would bluff a 6 outer this is basically no better than betting and having him fold? Whereas in a smaller pot it is more valuable to let him bluff instead of betting and have him fold because his 6 outer is worth fewer total dollars?

Thanks,
Cartman

[sthief09]

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i wanted to keep hands like 45 and 57 around to potentiall bluff at some point

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BTW, letting him draw to 6 outs is almost worth the "bluff bet" that you may or may not be getting.

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Do you mean the pot is big enough that even if we knew he would bluff a 6 outer this is basically no better than betting and having him fold? Whereas in a smaller pot it is more valuable to let him bluff instead of betting and have him fold because his 6 outer is worth fewer total dollars?

Thanks,
Cartman

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take 2 extreme cases. in the first case, there is no money in the pot. in this scenario, we would rather let him bluff the river than take the pot down right now.

if the pot had 100 bets in it, we would obviously rather take it down than get that extra bet on the river.

its similar to deciding whether to slowplay a hand. how does the value of future bets compare with the size of the pot right now?

in this situation he is saying that the pot has grown enough that we want to take it down and that his bluff bet (which absolutely is not guaranteed) is worth less

i think the biggest consideration here is that the flop was 633. he is unlikely to make a naked bluff since he knows that gabe knows that its unlikely for him to have anything. but then again he is also unlikely to actually have anything. i think the most likely hands are biggish aces, 54, 57. biggish aces arent folding. i think if he had a pocket pair hed 4-bet it since there is so much bs preflop pot pumping that people tend to not slowplay their big hands as much (maybe this is wrong, i dont play much hu). if he has 54 or 57 he will think he has enough outs to continue i think, and certainly with 54. so he is getting roughly breakeven odds to call, but thinks he has more, so he will call. also, since he knows its a bad board to bluff on, he will be unlikely to fire that last barrel on the river. so while he is getting 1 BB of implied odds, we are generally not getting him to bluff again. so the only value in keeping him in the pot is getting himt o hit a straight and pay us off

[ggbman]

I was dicussing this with Enon last night. Bet-call the turn. I will induce plenty of bluff-raises and ensure that money goes in. If he calls the turn, bet/call any river. If he raises the turn, check call the river to let him keep bluffing worse hands and lose less when he has me beat.

To all of you who want to c/r th turn. I don't like this idea because you give him the perogative to put in as many bets as he wants oon a board where it's fairy easy to assess my hand stregnth. He has shown strngth so far, and i really dont want 3 bets going in on the turn when i MUST showdown the hand.

[sthief09]

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I was dicussing this with Enon last night. Bet-call the turn. I will induce plenty of bluff-raises and ensure that money goes in. If he calls the turn, bet/call any river. If he raises the turn, check call the river to let him keep bluffing worse hands and lose less when he has me beat.

To all of you who want to c/r th turn. I don't like this idea because you give him the perogative to put in as many bets as he wants oon a board where it's fairy easy to assess my hand stregnth. He has shown strngth so far, and i really dont want 3 bets going in on the turn when i MUST showdown the hand.

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as for the turn, your hand can be anything from AK to A3 to AA. it is not at all easy to assess your hand strength. also, as for inducing bluff raises, it is something that i try against very aggressive opponents, and sometimes they just fold. sometimes you get excess action, but sometimes you miss a bet you couldve gained from him betting the turn. either way, at least we agree more bets have to go in on the turn.

also, i dont see how donking the turn doesnt give him the choice of how many bets to put in while checkraising does. when it comes down to it, he has 6 outs almost regarldess of what he has, and if he wont bet the river with the worst hand, then you gain tremendously by making him fold those 6 outs that he doesnt know he has

[cartman]

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also, i dont see how donking the turn doesnt give him the choice of how many bets to put in while checkraising does. when it comes down to it, he has 6 outs almost regarldess of what he has, and if he wont bet the river with the worst hand, then you gain tremendously by making him fold those 6 outs that he doesnt know he has

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You are right that he still has some choice in how many bets go in on the turn and river. I think Gabe's point is that if he checkraises, Dreamclown can choose up to 4 total bets. With a donk he can only choose a maximum of 3 total bets. This is the same reason I usually like to have the lead on the turn with a one pair hand that I feel like I have to show down heads up but that I'm not proud enough of to want to see 4 big bets go in on the turn and river. Am I crazy?

Cartman

[oreogod]

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I was dicussing this with Enon last night. Bet-call the turn. I will induce plenty of bluff-raises and ensure that money goes in. If he calls the turn, bet/call any river. If he raises the turn, check call the river to let him keep bluffing worse hands and lose less when he has me beat.

To all of you who want to c/r th turn. I don't like this idea because you give him the perogative to put in as many bets as he wants oon a board where it's fairy easy to assess my hand stregnth. He has shown strngth so far, and i really dont want 3 bets going in on the turn when i MUST showdown the hand.

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I both agree and disagree w/ the CR. Its a good move usually, but getting 3bet here really really sucks and u absolutly cannot fold this hand. I think c/c is some weak sauce, so that leaves bet/call.

Also, GG, question. U mentioned the bet control factor, did this mean CRing less? Can u detail a little more on your strategy.

[oreogod]

ummmm I missed that the turn was another 6. I dont read these message boards so hot. If thats the case Im usually check-raising here.

getting 3bet is not so bad in a siutation like this verse the board being 6635 or something like that.

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
It's me, woodrow5872, sansone from pokerroom and get crunk who play on the account at different times. For the 500-1000 matches we usually ate 1/4th the action each.

one can have NO EDGE against us. The big player on the site "Lagerborg" refuses to play us now after losing over 300k and claiming we can "see his cards" /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Eug

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{quote} Basically, i don't think my long term expectation of playing a few hundred hands with him is so bad that i couldn't take away enough to warrant the experience.
{/quote}

I already addressed why i was playing. There isn't any mystery about it, and i never claimed i had any sort of edge, so we can all put our E-Penis's away now. And as grat as you all are, none of you is going to break me in a few hundred hands, i think of it as a different mehtod of getting coached with the possibility of getting luvky and making some money /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[baronzeus]

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u gotta checkraise the turn here btw

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[ggbman]

Haha you [censored] fish, you can't wait for Eugene to come say something then just agree.

[baronzeus]

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Haha you [censored] fish, you can't wait for Eugene to come say something then just agree.

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haha true. but the board was 6663. and you had a 3. im curious as to why you didnt raise when he bet?


you need to be ahead like what, 66% of the time or something? even less because you can suck out with an A if he has 44+. so lets say 60%. you are probably ahead 90% of the time on the turn. right?

so if you're going to check you have to raise. but if you bet and he raises then you gotta consider 3betting, although i doubt you ever win UI if he caps...split at best.

anyways im babbling but the basic idea is you are ahead way too often on the turn to only allow 1 bet in.

[ggbman]

because I didn't particularly think i wanted 3 bets going in on this turn.It's one of those sitations where i he has a drawing tyoe hand, he can just call and fold the river UI, but if he has me beat he puts in more bets and i HAVE to showdown. Also, when i c/c the turn, he is about always going to value bet, and occasionally raise A-T or better on this river. How often he raises it for value i have no idea, but he raised AQ for value on this river.

[baronzeus]

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because I didn't particularly think i wanted 3 bets going in on this turn.It's one of those sitations where i he has a drawing tyoe hand, he can just call and fold the river UI, but if he has me beat he puts in more bets and i HAVE to showdown. Also, when i c/c the turn, he is about always going to value bet, and occasionally raise A-T or better on this river. How often he raises it for value i have no idea, but he raised AQ for value on this river.

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what do you mean...if he has a drawing type hand (of which the only "drawing" hands are nopair hands now, obv) then you should c/r any river...betting the river is pretty bad imo unless you think he'll bluff raise with some frequency. say he has something like 45o. what does your bet accomplish?

[ggbman]

It's to make him pay with his good king high hands which he might not value bet.

[baronzeus]

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It's to make him pay with his good king high hands which he might not value bet.

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what about the rest of the hands that he plays like this?

i see the general idea, but i really really don't like c/c on the turn. bet/call, bet/3bet, check/raise are all options, but you have to admit you missed bets on the turn here...

[ggbman]

I think a bet 3/bet is kinda spewish, and again, we dont want to expose oursevles to a cap here, we ant to showdown the hand FOR AN AMOUNT OF BETS THAT IS GOOD FOR US, not him. You're right that we want more than 1 bet going in on the turn, but we sure as [censored] dont want 4 going in. I think i like the line i came up with with Enon, i posted it, see what you think of that.

[baronzeus]

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He has shown strngth so far, and i really dont want 3 bets going in on the turn when i MUST showdown the hand.

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raising the button preflop, then c/r a raggy flop is far too wide a range to say that he has shown "strength". i dont know what his range is here but i'd say it's much wider than you think and i also think you are underestimating how often you are ahead and over estimating how bad a 3bet is there.


the whole postflop outlook of this hand seems a little weak tight.

i like bet/call the turn, but what if he free showdown raises something like KJ, or QJ, or some other random hand?

[Entity]

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i like bet/call the turn, but what if he free showdown raises something like KJ, or QJ, or some other random hand?

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A line I've used sometimes (I hesistate to say I'd use it here) is check-call bet-intendingto-call bet-intendingto-call. Sometimes I bet-fold on the end but not very often. I've induced a lot of really really bad river "value" raises and it helps to disguise the times where I bet-3bet on the turn or river.

Rob