Curtains Hand #1

[Degen]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Button (t2640)
SB (t2390)
BB (t1080)
Hero (t890)
MP (t3000)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t95</font>, MP calls t95, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (t235) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero is all in [t795] .

Final Pot: t235

Well, I definately never play it like this. Any reads? One reason why he might do this is because he is OOP, and if he bet out now and is called, and doesn't improve on the turn, he's in an ugly situation. If he's raised here he probably has to let the hand go, or go all-in anyway. But I don't know. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Degen]

How many outs are we counting here? Do the hearts count enough to be 8 additional outs (jack counts for straight) when you don't have the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Overs and straight are both iffy. IMO the only way this gets action is when its beat or a very close race.

If you are of the opinion that this hand has value (meaning you are counting all of your outs as live...) then why not make a value bet instead of potentially driving him out of the pot?

For curtains, do you play this the same if you have the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ?

[Freudian]

How did a 215 get down to five players in level 2? And how did MP get hold of those 3000 chips?

Anyway, if he is a donkey and calls with Q7, hero is still in pretty good shape. So I like it.

[curtains]

This hand is totally standard for me and has nothing to do with reads. Basically my hand is too strong to fold if I get raised, as I have too many outs against one pair hands (and some against 2 pair hands), and can't put a large % of my chips in the pot and then leave them in with such a big draw. Meanwhile I don't want to encourage my opponent to come over the top of me or bluff me, when all I have is ace high with a flush draw. Also the 235 chips in the pot are worth something signifigant. For the above reasons allin is clearly correct IMO and everything else is terrible.

btw should I wait some time before responding to this stuff?

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
How many outs are we counting here? Do the hearts count enough to be 8 additional outs (jack counts for straight) when you don't have the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Overs and straight are both iffy. IMO the only way this gets action is when its beat or a very close race.

If you are of the opinion that this hand has value (meaning you are counting all of your outs as live...) then why not make a value bet instead of potentially driving him out of the pot?

For curtains, do you play this the same if you have the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I play this the same whether my ace is a heart or not. I don't consider that my hand has value! What I mean is I definitely want my opponent to fold. However I cannot bet and then fold myself as my opponent could either be bluffing, or I will often have too many outs to justify folding once the pot is so large.

Sorry if Im not answering the question well, but IMO this is a really standard allin. I barely even look at the table to make this play. I just see the 3 hearts on the board, see that I have one in my hand and that I have only 3 times the pot in my hand, and move allin.

[curtains]

To summarize - the key to this hand is that you cannot bet and then fold to a raise. Also you don't want action. Thus you move allin to discourage the action. If the pot had 100 chips in it, instead of 250, the play would change.

Please note that Im practically a coinflip here against top two pair. I simply cannot fold this hand NO MATTER WHAT after the flop. This is not at all a close or difficult decision.

I like the push as opposed to a standard bet, but what about checking with the intention of check/pushing or betting any turn?

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the push as opposed to a standard bet, but what about checking with the intention of check/pushing or betting any turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Too much money in the pot, I want it. Also my draw has lost a lot of value on the turn. This is really a dream scenario. Against most hands that give me action, Im about 50% to win...and the larger majority of the time my opponent will fold. Note that Im a favorite (55%) against AQ no heart here.

Out of curiosity, what other hand do you push the flop here with? Do you ever overbet push with a set?

Basically, what I am wondering is do metagame considerations come in here. An overbet push sure looks like a big draw and if thats the only type of hand you do this with it seems like 1 pair hands will look you up often. Maybe I'm overestimating this factor, but I don't play the 215's so I don't know how often you see the same opponents.

[Jman28]

This is reasonably standard. Curtains, you're giving away too many secrets with this project.

[Degen]

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This is reasonably standard. Curtains, you're giving away too many secrets with this project.

[/ QUOTE ]

SHHH!!!!!!

[Roman]

I c/r allin here vs the right opponents.

Curatins line is good here without a read though, u arent letting go of this hand period.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, what other hand do you push the flop here with? Do you ever overbet push with a set?

Basically, what I am wondering is do metagame considerations come in here. An overbet push sure looks like a big draw and if thats the only type of hand you do this with it seems like 1 pair hands will look you up often. Maybe I'm overestimating this factor, but I don't play the 215's so I don't know how often you see the same opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually overbet allin with many hands here due to the 3 flush. I basically always overbet allin here with top pair or an overpair.

Sometimes I overbet with a set, but thats usually when I am playing at a table where there are a lot of regulars. I try to play slightly more unpredictably in situations like this in those spots, but ok usually I just play my normal game.

Most of the hands I bet here will be allin. I don't like to mess around with smaller sized bets in big pots.

Anyway goin to bed now, goodnight all!

This is awesome.

[Nicok7]

I like it because you are in a special stack position, although you still have time, the table is probably agg and with big stacks reduces your edge. It's through moves like this that you will earn respect and not be bullied around. I think that's a key factor that your stack is way below averag.

May I ask would you do the same if there was say 8 players left (same amount of payers see the flop) and everyone had equal stacks?

[ QUOTE ]
This is reasonably standard. Curtains, you're giving away too many secrets with this project.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ChoicestHops]

I rarely find myself in a situation like this. The stacks at the table are huge at this level. Given that you're ahead and have a slight edge against most hands. Worst case scenario is a set which leaves you a 2-1 underdog.

I probably wouldn't think of pushing here, but it looks right to either double up or at least increase your stack if he folds.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

This hand is totally standard for period

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

I don't see how anyone else can suggest another line, your reasoning is spot on and nothing else makes any sense.

[Custer]

Does anyone ever consider check raising all in here, particularly against a thinking opponent? If you check, its likely your opponent will bet, but not bet so much to take away your FE on your raise. I wonder how many more hands your opponent will call with when you cr here than just bet out? I'm guessing not many. He might call with less hands. A thinking opponent might even muck a hand like KQ here at this level, since a cr on the flop in this situation usually represents such a powerful hand.

moses

[golfcchs]

I like the push, but do you play this any differently if stacks are all about equal and there are 9-10 players still at the table?

[microbet]

This is a $215 down to 5 players in level 2. Jeebus.

MP with the big stack is prolly a nut job. I think other ways to play this hand would be nice, but you can't give up on it and MP isn't likely to give you any options. The pot is big compared to your stack and the only way to get all your money in first is to open push the flop.

[Nicok7]

I just feel that Hero wouldn't mind a call for part or all of his stack here since he has 2 overcards + double draw (although not a nut flush draw and the straight his a gutshot). I feel a check raise is a decent option since at worst seing a free turn is good.

As for getting reraised if not going all in I would instacall getting surely the odds against almost anything (Ace of hearts is the worst card obviously, but you are a favorite against top pair!)

I still like the all in, and have no problem some people considering it standart, but saying it is the only option seems wrong to me.

[microbet]

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btw should I wait some time before responding to this stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think so.

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MP with the big stack is prolly a nut job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or he took care of all the other nut jobs. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[zipppy]

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btw should I wait some time before responding to this stuff?

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I think so.

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[pergesu]

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Does anyone ever consider check raising all in here, particularly against a thinking opponent?

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming this is standard at a lot of people have said, wouldn't a thinking opponent just move in if he were to bet? That's not the desired spot for us.

[Bill Poker]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone ever consider check raising all in here, particularly against a thinking opponent?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. the pot is already big, dont mind taking down now.
2. if check raise, the pot is big enough (odds is good enough) for vallian to call push.
3. this hand is only slighty favorite against top pair, curtains tried to discourage action.

[ QUOTE ]
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btw should I wait some time before responding to this stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it might be nice if the posters didn't say that these hands are curtains', as there's a lot of "Obviously that's the right play" replies in these first two hands.

Another option is freezing the action before the interesting play (in which case curtains would obviously have to wait a little before joining in).

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it might be nice if the posters didn't say that these hands are curtains', as there's a lot of "Obviously that's the right play" replies in these first two hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. I had 3 more to post but their on my laptop so have to do it in the morning...and can't wait given the response so far...

Peronally I think its good that they are labled curtains, if others disagree I can disguise the rest...

[Scuba Chuck]

I play this the exact same way. What's the question Degen?

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
I play this the exact same way. What's the question Degen?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't play it that way, therefore its an interesting hand to me, i posted it as per curtains' request

[Scuba Chuck]

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I play this the exact same way. What's the question Degen?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't play it that way, therefore its an interesting hand to me, i posted it as per curtains' request

[/ QUOTE ]

Degen, then for yours, and everyone else's benefit, how would you have played this hand?

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play this the exact same way. What's the question Degen?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't play it that way, therefore its an interesting hand to me, i posted it as per curtains' request

[/ QUOTE ]

Degen, then for yours, and everyone else's benefit, how would you have played this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

same PF more than likely, i raise the flop...probably min-raise or 3X

though i've played less than 100 215's...in a 109 down i play it like that

now i'm rethinking that


if there is one thing i am getting from watching these HH's...its that the answer is truly 'it depends' in ANY given situation, more so than i had ever thought

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the push, but do you play this any differently if stacks are all about equal and there are 9-10 players still at the table?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont remember even thniking that there were 5 players yes. All that matters to me in this spot is the pot size and the effective chip stack. Because of this I would do the same thing at a 6 player table, 10 player table etc.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Button (t2640)
SB (t2390)
BB (t1080)
Hero (t890)
MP (t3000)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t95</font>, MP calls t95, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (t235) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero is all in [t795] .

Final Pot: t235

[/ QUOTE ]

I love that this is 5 handed at L2

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Button (t2640)
SB (t2390)
BB (t1080)
Hero (t890)
MP (t3000)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t95</font>, MP calls t95, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (t235) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero is all in [t795] .

Final Pot: t235

[/ QUOTE ]

I love that this is 5 handed at L2

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I gotta get myself back to the 215s. Damn bankroll.

[curtains]

This doesn't happen often /images/graemlins/smile.gif Probably this was the only tournament I played last night with 5 left at level 2.

[Newt_Buggs]

I can't remember the last time that I was 5 handed in level 2 in a $215.

[pineapple888]

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This doesn't happen often /images/graemlins/smile.gif Probably this was the only tournament I played last night with 5 left at level 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sure hope so. But I don't remember this ever happening back when I had money.