View Full Version : strange hand against mike l. 20/40
private joker
12-09-2005, 05:09 AM
Sort of crappy 20/40 game at Hollywood Park that got a lot better after mike l. left seat 1.
I'm in seat 5 on the button in this hand. Mike opens in MP1, some guy cold-calls in MP2 whom I don't have a read on yet but mike probably does.
Folded to me on the button with KK. 3 bets. The blinds get out of the way, mike and MP2 call. Three to the flop.
Flop comes down AQT. Mike checks, MP2 checks, I check.
Turn comes down Q. Mike checks, MP2 checks, I check.
River comes down J. Mike checks, MP2 bets, I call...
i would rather raise the river b/c i think that there is a better chance that mp2 pays you off w/ a hand that you beat than that mike overcalls w/ a worse hand that he would've folded to a raise.
also, i don't like the flop check. follow through on your preflop aggression - if you don't like the response you get on the flop (e.g., 2 calls) then you can take your free card on the turn.
goofball
12-09-2005, 06:20 AM
Bleh. I think an A or a Q bets this turn. Since they both checked I think you should bet. Mike will likely fold but MP2 could want to call with a T or JJ or 99 or something, I dunno. River call is ok but do you think mike is overcalling here ever given the previous action? (I don't know if that's what you were going for, I think the call is ok because I can't think of any hands that you beat that call your river raise).
private joker
12-09-2005, 06:30 AM
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I think the call is ok because I can't think of any hands that you beat that call your river raise
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This is why I called -- not to get mike's overcall. (IMO, mike is either folding or checkraising this river, and I'm hoping/praying/fairly sure a checkraise isn't in the works because Mike can't count on the river being bet the way the flop and turn went down -- I think he'd bet/3-bet any hand he would c/r the river with.) A river raise is called by a hand I'm chopping with or losing to, and getting 3-bet by any boat.
GuyOnTilt
12-09-2005, 07:00 AM
Why check the flop?
GoT
private joker
12-09-2005, 07:20 AM
I think I'm getting checkraised a lot of the time by mike l., and furthermore I won't even know what it means. He's in perfect position to shut MP2 out for 2 cold on the flop, and the pot is 5BB before the flop is even dealt so it's worth him checkraising both an A and a hand worse than mine.
If I'm ahead, there isn't much danger in giving a free card really. Hands like QJ and JT only have 2 outs. If I'm behind, I'd love a free shot at a 4-outer or 6-outer.
And lastly, though this is in no way the primary reason, I shouldn't always be continuation-betting flops like this with hands like KK when playing against a 2+2er/TAG like mike l.
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I think the call is ok because I can't think of any hands that you beat that call your river raise
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This is why I called -- not to get mike's overcall. (IMO, mike is either folding or checkraising this river, and I'm hoping/praying/fairly sure a checkraise isn't in the works because Mike can't count on the river being bet the way the flop and turn went down -- I think he'd bet/3-bet any hand he would c/r the river with.) A river raise is called by a hand I'm chopping with or losing to, and getting 3-bet by any boat.
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i don't necessarily agree with this. from my experience in live 20/40 games (on the east coast - i hear w. coast is even more ridiculous) you will get your raise paid off by any ace, some kind of oddly played q9s, q8s, or similar, and maybe even some other stuff.
though these would be strangely played hands if he has them, so would any of his FH hands that would 3-bet you (except jj). people play really badly at this level.
so i still think it's a raise for value, although close. also, i think mike is folding here nearly always, even if you don't raise.
private joker
12-09-2005, 08:38 AM
Well, one potential benefit to raising the river is that in case I *do* have MP2 beat and he is betting with some A, and Mike has a hand like KTs (which if he had, wouldn't he lead the river himself?), I could get him to fold half the pot with a raise -- since he'd have to call 2 cold not closing the action hoping he's chopping.
But I don't think that happens nearly as often as I get worse hands to fold and better hands to reraise me. Also, I disagree with your assessment of how 20/40 games play; they can be juicy, but not so donkish that someone will call a river raise on a board this scary with one pair.
pj,
my experience in such games is limited, but i think an A pays you off sometimes (AJ almost always), and 3 Qs w/ a kicker below T will always pay off.
though these hands don't make much sense (wouldn't we hear from him earlier?), neither do any of the FH hands aside from JJ, for the same reason.
that's why i think it's close but i lean toward raising - it is very unlikely he has a hand that beats yours and 3-bets (jj being the lone logical exception), and it is also unlikely that he has a hand that you beat that he played this way and decided to bet the river. i think the latter range is larger than the former, though.
back to the flop which i meant to comment on earlier:
i think you should bet it. if you are checking flops like these occasionally, then you must also check sometimes when you flop nicely, or mike and similar players will notice. the caveat is that in multiway pots, checking in last position w/ a very good hand is usually a big mistake (missing value + giving free cards) and so you would almost never want to do this. thus, i prefer always betting on good/bad flops to mixing in occasional checks when the flop is good/bad.
also i think it's pretty unlikely that mike cr's you on this flop. first, from his perspective it nailed your hand range, so he is unlikely to be cr'ing to take the pot away. second, many of the hands that would have hit him hard he probably would've capped preflop - aa, qq, ak, maybe tt. third, if he did have one of these hands, or aq, or at, i think there's a good chance he would lead the flop and trap the dude in the middle as opposed to shutting him out.
DMBFan23
12-09-2005, 10:54 AM
why is AJ more likely than any other ace to pay off?
thejameser
12-09-2005, 11:12 AM
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why is AJ more likely than any other ace to pay off?
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Duh, 3 pair.
smurfitup
12-09-2005, 11:49 AM
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Sort of crappy 20/40 game at Hollywood Park
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a crappy game at hp? wow.
Entity
12-09-2005, 11:54 AM
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I could get him to fold half the pot with a raise -- since he'd have to call 2 cold not closing the action hoping he's chopping.
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He's not folding a King here given your flop and turn play.
Rob
andyfox
12-09-2005, 01:00 PM
/images/graemlins/smile.gif
GuyOnTilt
12-09-2005, 01:09 PM
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it's worth him checkraising both an A and a hand worse than mine.
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Disagree.
GoT
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why is AJ more likely than any other ace to pay off?
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b/c 3 pair falls in between 2 pair and a straight, so his hand is stronger /images/graemlins/crazy.gif
disregard that detail, but i still think my argument for raising stands.
onegymrat
12-09-2005, 01:37 PM
MP2 filled up, didn't he?
bakku
12-09-2005, 02:20 PM
hi pj,
i figured out what was strange about this hand..no bets went in on the flop or turn
omg why do you have a white guy as your avatar does that me you two bukkake each other lol rofl bwahahahaha
bakku
12-09-2005, 02:45 PM
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omg why do you have a white guy as your avatar does that me you two bukkake each other lol rofl bwahahahaha
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father time has apparently not been kind to you
fu i'm still 30 for three more weeks.
mike l.
12-09-2005, 03:51 PM
outstanding read.
Justin A
12-09-2005, 04:18 PM
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I think I'm getting checkraised a lot of the time by mike l., and furthermore I won't even know what it means. He's in perfect position to shut MP2 out for 2 cold on the flop, and the pot is 5BB before the flop is even dealt so it's worth him checkraising both an A and a hand worse than mine.
If I'm ahead, there isn't much danger in giving a free card really. Hands like QJ and JT only have 2 outs. If I'm behind, I'd love a free shot at a 4-outer or 6-outer.
And lastly, though this is in no way the primary reason, I shouldn't always be continuation-betting flops like this with hands like KK when playing against a 2+2er/TAG like mike l.
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Wow mike apparently your play is making guys mortified of what you might do. Nice work.
If you bet on the flop and there is a raiser, can you honestly think your hand is still ahead? Wouldn't it be best to see where things are now? What value do you think you are going to get later on if you bet out with kings on? Someone may call with "QJ," "QK" or "K10" if you bet out on the turn, but those are basically your three ideal hands in this spot. They will most likely call you on the flop with those hands anyway.
The "Q" on the turn puts you in trouble, so at this point, I say check.
I don't raise on the river. Only conceivable hand here that you can beat is "QK." And QK is betting on the turn. Best to just call, fold to a raise.
Argun
elindauer
12-09-2005, 05:32 PM
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Duh, 3 pair.
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you know, you laugh, but in my experience people with counterfeited hands that nonetheless look very nice often make really bad river decisions.
i don't think the OP meant this. i don't think mike pays off with this hand. I only mention it because I find it interesting.
-eric
thejameser
12-09-2005, 05:40 PM
Post deleted by thejameser
private joker
12-09-2005, 05:42 PM
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Only conceivable hand here that you can beat is "QK."
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I'm chopping with KQ.
flawless_victory
12-09-2005, 05:56 PM
might want to edit your post.. FAST!
private joker
12-10-2005, 08:53 AM
Mike folded AT, and MP2 rolled AQ. The 2+2ers lost the minimum, and the fish won the minimum. Nice hands? Uh...
Justin A
12-10-2005, 04:08 PM
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Mike folded AT, and MP2 rolled AQ. The 2+2ers lost the minimum, and the fish won the minimum. Nice hands? Uh...
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That doesn't mean you played it well.
Garland
12-10-2005, 05:15 PM
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when playing against a 2+2er/TAG like mike l.
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Maybe it's a brain cramp. Maybe it's a typo, but I seriously don't know how you can type "T" instead of an "L". It's like 5 keys away...
Garland
mike l.
12-10-2005, 05:29 PM
"I seriously don't know how you can type "T" instead of an "L"."
come down here and find out
Garland
12-10-2005, 06:24 PM
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come down here and find out
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Ironic. I'll actually be in LA for 6 days in a week. Maybe I have to see the man, the myth, the legend himself... Maybe mikel can finally say he's progressed to zee's fourth stage.../images/graemlins/grin.gif
Garland
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Mike folded AT, and MP2 rolled AQ. The 2+2ers lost the minimum, and the fish won the minimum. Nice hands? Uh...
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That doesn't mean you played it well.
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holla
mike l.
12-10-2005, 11:57 PM
"Maybe mikel can finally say he's progressed to zee's fourth stage..."
dude i progressed to some stage that zee wont write about. it's a new stage and it has no number. we call it "ultraexpert".
but yeah throw me a pm when youre around.
mike l.
12-10-2005, 11:59 PM
he played the hand perfectly. it was a nice nuanced hand that involved playing the players and their hand range correctly. normally KK is a bet on this flop. but in this special case it was not.
i also played the hand expertly.
Garland
12-11-2005, 01:37 AM
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dude i progressed to some stage that zee wont write about. it's a new stage and it has no number. we call it "ultraexpert".
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You might want to change your profile then. /images/graemlins/cool.gif
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but yeah throw me a pm when youre around.
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Will do...
Garland
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it was a nice nuanced hand that involved playing the players and their hand range correctly.
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I think that's what all hands are about.
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normally KK is a bet on this flop. but in this special case it was not.
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Just because you say it doesn't make it true.
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