3/6: KQ flops TP, turns two pair

[AceHiStation]

Just sat down, no relevant reads. I'm in a bad downswing... so I could use a quick scolding to help me out.
Thanks,
-Ace

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

CO ($1151.13)
Button ($668.73)
Hero ($586.12)
BB ($688.15)
UTG ($185)
MP ($1208.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls $6, MP calls $6, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $18</font>, Hero (poster) calls $15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls $12, MP calls $12.

Flop: ($78) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $75</font>, Hero calls $75, UTG folds, MP calls $75.

Turn: ($303) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $150</font>, Hero calls $150, MP calls $150.

River: ($753) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero calls all-in($343.12), MP calls $343.12, Button folds.

Final Pot: $1439.24

[Raven]

I wonder why you didnt check-raise the turn all-in ?

[scrapperdog]

We cant scold you too bad cause we all have done it. Yep the time to end the party is when it gets back to you on the turn. If someone has a set oh well, top 2 is one of those times where a set is gonna make its money.

[ansky451]

I'm not a big fan of playing a multi way raised pot with KQo OOP. Other than that, seems odd not to check raise all in on turn.

[soah]

I really dislike playing multiway raised pots from the sb with KQo.

[Bukem_]

I hate to be nitty, but fold preflop, mostly cause your relative position is bad.

I want to make a comment on your postflop play, but once I make it to that turn, I probably go broke too. Not so sure I even cr all in, since MP likely only calls with a set, and might as well attempt to drag him with a potentially worse hand if we are planning to put all the money in anyways.

Flop play is so awkward, and mostly why folding preflop is good.

Was MP one of those 50/5 guys who never raises to protect his hand, and always ends up with higher set over set, and never other way around?

[AceHiStation]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder why you didnt check-raise the turn all-in ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I felt there were hands I could scare off on the turn that wouldn't suckout by seeing river card.

[Raven]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder why you didnt check-raise the turn all-in ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I felt there were hands I could scare off on the turn that wouldn't suckout by seeing river card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its just that with 2 opponent there are a lot of backdoor draws that could be there on the turn and the pot is big enough to protect relative to the stack sizes.

I would fold before the flop most of the time also, but I dont think its that much bad to call.

[AceHiStation]

Dude flipped up 33... looking back it was pretty obvious he had 3s or 5s ... and that was in the back of my mind as I called the turn bet. After I made the preflop call I immediately didn't like it. Got me into a bad situation and I was unable to get away as a result.

Thanks,
-Ace

[scrapperdog]

I would have been more upset with flat calling turn and having someone suck out with a heart like AQ hearts (I know you had queen but am pretending you did not) or having an ace pop up to help out AK then I would be with paying off a set with top 2. Or even a 3 come to bail out AA. These top 2 hands are hard to get away from. That bet on flop is pretty strong though, maybe get away on flop but once the king came I pay them off. Sounds like your hand reading skills are pretty damn good, dont let the swing get you down.

[BobboFitos]

fold pf

[ClaytonN]

for some reason i interpret MP's second overcall on the flop as being an alarm bell. doesn't look right. something fishy!

that said, your line looks totally backwards. why did you not get your money in on the turn?

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude flipped up 33... looking back it was pretty obvious he had 3s or 5s ... and that was in the back of my mind as I called the turn bet. After I made the preflop call I immediately didn't like it. Got me into a bad situation and I was unable to get away as a result.

Thanks,
-Ace

[/ QUOTE ]

if this is the case, why bet out the river? assume MP is a live one or something to that extent, you will get a bet fired into you a lot with weaker holdings if you check out, but when you make that push you are only getting called by hands that beat you. HU you can get more action, but when you are pushing out 3-handed on the river I would think that players are calling you with a little bit tighter holdings on the $350 bet into the $700 pot, especially so with MP. On the other hand button could fire a third bet with something like AK, since neither you nor MP have given any reason to believe you've got that beat and would call down again with something like QJ.

[fuzzbox]

MPs overcall on that flop is pretty scary. I like to try to lead the turn through him, to see if he likes his hand. I usually like to lead the flop through the limp/caller, cos he often has a PP, and we want to find out if he has a set for cheap (and if button has AK). If you lead flop and it goes, call, raise, then you can bail right there (and you never see the stack-depleting Q on the turn).

[scrapperdog]

Am I the only one here that does not usually fold KQ to a 3X on the button in a 6 max? If you wont defend with this hand the button would be correct to constantly raise your blind. Part of this depends on how often the button is raising but if it is a lot, like in many shorthanded games, I defend here. If raiser was early position I pass.

[bizaff]

Do you still consider it defending if there's two limpers prior to the raiser?

Here, you're not only OOP of the raise, but potentially 2 others as well.

[emil3000]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one here that does not usually fold KQ to a 3X on the button in a 6 max? If you wont defend with this hand the button would be correct to constantly raise your blind. Part of this depends on how often the button is raising but if it is a lot, like in many shorthanded games, I defend here. If raiser was early position I pass.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're gonna defend here, reraising preflop is way superior.

[lehighguy]

I defend without question, I think these people are crazy.

If you can't defend with KQ against a button raise, what can you defend with.

P.S. I raise to 3xBB if folded to me on the button probably top 50% of hands.

[lehighguy]

Are the party 3/6NL games that tight that you guys fold KQ to a button raiser?

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
I defend without question, I think these people are crazy.

If you can't defend with KQ against a button raise, what can you defend with.

P.S. I raise to 3xBB if folded to me on the button probably top 50% of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your relative position is the reason you fold this hand preflop.

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
Are the party 3/6NL games that tight that you guys fold KQ to a button raiser?

[/ QUOTE ]

They aren't tight at all.

[scrapperdog]

OK I dont play Party and dont know what the games are like there. I do play a few other sites though. At one of them the play is pretty passive and defending your blinds is only a small factor in the game.

At the other site I play if it is folded to the button the button is gonna raise more than half the time. If you dont defend you will get run over. If you defend a few times they will often knock it off. I am not saying go out of your way to defend, but KQ to a 3x I will defend if the button has been being abused (which is the norm at the agressive second site). I guess this depends on how often the button raises a limped pot, and what the site dynamics are.

[yvesaint]

hey, ill defend a lot more if its FOLDED to the button and he raises

but limpers, he raises, KQ in the SB? muck it or re-raise, definitely not call

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
fold pf

[/ QUOTE ]

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
I defend without question, I think these people are crazy.

If you can't defend with KQ against a button raise, what can you defend with.

P.S. I raise to 3xBB if folded to me on the button probably top 50% of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize that KQo is horrible, in this spot, right?

[BK_]

when the pot is big like this on the flop and you are oop, i like leading the flop. its tough to play this hand on the turn and river if you c/r the flop and get called, and its tough to play on the turn and river if you just check call like you did. you make the villian's decisions very easy