Questionable Laydown - My First! (200 PLO8b)

[Spladle Master]

Seat 1: ( $219.99)
Seat 3: ( $152.25)
Seat 5: ( $194.95)
Hero: ( $406)
My Bitch: ( $189)
Seat 9 posts small blind (1)
Seat 10 posts big blind (2)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
Seat 1 calls (2)
Seat 2 folds.
Seat 3 calls (2)
Seat 4 folds.
SEAT 5 calls (2)
Seat 6 folds.
Hero calls (2)
My Bitch raises (15) to 15
2 folds.
Seat 1 calls (13)
Seat 3 calls (13)
Seat 5 folds.
Hero calls (13)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
Seat 1 checks.
Seat 3 checks.
Hero checks.
My Bitch bets (62)
Seat 1 folds.
Seat 3 calls (62)
Hero folds.

The villain in this hand is the same LAG from Hand 4. I was planning to check-raise his ass on this flop if everyone folded to my bitch's bet, but unfortunately someone decided call. That made me think that I should fold, since the rest of the table was playing pretty tight and letting my bitch get away with a lot of thievery. Was this a good fold or should I have check-raised his ass all-in again?

You played this right; only check-raise that ass on the strength of an overpair when you've got a draw to the nut low or at least 2nd nut on a 2-to-the-low board.

BTW, I hope you're informing your bitch that he needs to make sure your shirts are pressed and folded neatly, and that dinner better goddam well be on the table when you get home from work each time you drag a pot.

Somewhere in your plethora of posts you need to say what stakes you're playing and whether it's limit or pot limit.

[beset7]

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Somewhere in your plethora of posts you need to say what stakes you're playing and whether it's limit or pot limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

He means in the subject line. Can you tell I'm procrastinating work I did it for you. lol

Not even. Is it anywhere in the body of any of these posts?

[grant]

Dude, I think pre-flop bets of 2 and raises of 13 imply some sort of non-limit game. prolly pot limit. my 2 cents.

[dabigbadrook]

Your preflop action was not good. If you are going to play KK23, I would think you need to isolate the one player with a re-raise. In this case with two callers, calling is the worst. I would fold the KK23 instantly pre-flop after a raise and two calls. Just my opinion

[Wolffink]

I dont like the preflop or the planned check-raise.

Catch My Bitch, the LAG, when you have a hand. A better hand will come around for you soon. Then try to take the LAG's stack then.

[Jorge10]

KK23 is a big hand. I dont mind calling preflop and trying to bust him. To anyone that folds this preflop: WHAT?!?

This is an easy flop to get away from because you know the guy that called the villan probably has the nut low draw. Also you cant put villan on a hand, even if it seems like you probably have him beat, he might show something that beats you like top two or even a small set. Just wait till you get a hand, no need to get your money in on a flop that didnt really do much for you.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
You played this right; only check-raise that ass on the strength of an overpair when you've got a draw to the nut low or at least 2nd nut on a 2-to-the-low board.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was definitely going to check-raise him if everyone folded around to me. It was the fact that someone called that swung my decision towards a fold. Should I have folded even if everyone else did?

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]

I dont like the preflop or the planned check-raise.

Catch My Bitch, the LAG, when you have a hand. A better hand will come around for you soon. Then try to take the LAG's stack then.

[/ QUOTE ]
An overpair with the third nut low draw against someone potting it every time it's their turn to act isn't a hand?

[Spladle Master]

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KK23 is a big hand. I dont mind calling preflop and trying to bust him. To anyone that folds this preflop: WHAT?!?

This is an easy flop to get away from because you know the guy that called the villan probably has the nut low draw. Also you cant put villan on a hand, even if it seems like you probably have him beat, he might show something that beats you like top two or even a small set. Just wait till you get a hand, no need to get your money in on a flop that didnt really do much for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
These were my thoughts.

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I was definitely going to check-raise him if everyone folded around to me. It was the fact that someone called that swung my decision towards a fold. Should I have folded even if everyone else did?

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I think I'd call but not check-raise, even if everyone else folds.

[blumpkin22]

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KK23 is a big hand.

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The problem with the hand is that with the 23 you need an ace to flop, but then that makes KK no good for the high. So you really are looking for AKx to flop. Good luck with that.

[Spladle Master]

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[ QUOTE ]
KK23 is a big hand.

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The problem with the hand is that with the 23 you need an ace to flop, but then that makes KK no good for the high. So you really are looking for AKx to flop. Good luck with that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just for the record, crazy guy in this hand had 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Remind me again why it is so necessary that either an ace or king flop for me to continue playing and I'll listen.

[Jorge10]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
KK23 is a big hand.

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The problem with the hand is that with the 23 you need an ace to flop, but then that makes KK no good for the high. So you really are looking for AKx to flop. Good luck with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you dont need A/K to come on the flop. Any flop with a King is a monster flop for you. If the flop comes K/10/8, the 2/3 will come into play on any favorable turn for you. If a J, Q, or A, or 9 comes you are probably dead to anyone that called your flop bet. So you need a low card on the turn. Thats where 2/3 comes into play. If a low comes on the river you will not just get the high, you will scoop a big percentage of the time. Thats why its a solid hand.

Also if the flop comes A/7/8 and you bet and a guy just calls. You are usually way ahead and will quarter him a big percentage of the time.

You dont need a monster both ways to continue in a hand.

Fold it PF.

[Spladle Master]

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Fold it PF.

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No. Seriously, wtf.

[blumpkin22]

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Any flop with a King is a monster flop for you.

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LOL. You are funny to me.

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If the flop comes K/10/8, the 2/3 will come into play on any favorable turn for you.

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Also if the flop comes A/7/8 and you bet and a guy just calls. You are usually way ahead and will quarter him a big percentage of the time.

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I agree here.

[Drizztdj]

Yikes. I don't see the value in playing KK23 anywhere but shorthanded and/or heads-up.

[ QUOTE ]
Yikes. I don't see the value in playing KK23 anywhere but shorthanded and/or heads-up.

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Hm. I'd prefer playing it in a full ring game; playing overpairs for value (required in SH) is much tougher than playing sets for value (what you would be doing in full ring). Same goes for a 23 low; SH you might be playing a 3rd nut low with some strength, full ring it's very black & white, you fold w/out an A on the board.

Obviously KK23 has great value in a SH/HU game, but I think it's equally if not more valuable in a full ring.

[willmay3]

[ QUOTE ]

I dont like the preflop or the planned check-raise.

Catch My Bitch, the LAG, when you have a hand. A better hand will come around for you soon. Then try to take the LAG's stack then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me give you a different perspective. I am a total sucker in this game, losing close to $6000 in the last year playing in the $100 and the $200 buy in games on various sites (mainly Party and Stars - screenname willmay3. You want to play at my table!).

It is EXACTLY these types of hands and playing them EXACTLY as you have described that have caused me to go broke. I'm not sure I would have folded preflop now with my increased discipline, but the idea of slapping around a BIOTCH with an overpair and a WEAK low draw smells of Hold 'Em thinking to me.

I know this smell well - it smells like a bankroll being burned.

You are looking for is an opportunity where you KNOW you have a lock one way and are freerolling on his punk ass for the other half (I speak as a recovering punk ass on this one).

You are no where near that. You have a dubious high and an even more dubious low and you could be drawing almost dead in both directions.

This is what I call a "might-but hand." I might have him beat high, and I might have him beat low, BUT if I don't I can still draw out on him.

I've gone broke (in the poker sense - send FPP to willmay3rd@yahoo.com to help out) with this sort of brain damaged thinking.

What you want is a "I Know" hand. Like I KNOW I have the nut low, and I'm drawing to a scoop on the nut flush.

In Hold 'Em you can't wait for the nuts and hope to win. In PLO8, ESPECIALLY against LAG's, you sure as hell can. You may only, really win 1 pot an hour, but it will be HUGE.

Just to share with you, while I was losing all this money at PLO8 I was winning an incredibl amount of pots at show down, over 93%. That means in 93% of the time I was winning at least 1/2 the pot. But, thinking like I think you are thinking (may be wrong), that 7% was a real BIOTCH. I was getting scooped monster pots by, really, average players playing patient games.

This is the way to beat this game.

Pick a better spot with this guy.

With Regards,

Will

p.s. - I hope I didn't come of as an [censored], it's just I've been there (I might still be there).

[ QUOTE ]
Just to share with you, while I was losing all this money at PLO8 I was winning an incredibl amount of pots at show down, over 93%. That means in 93% of the time I was winning at least 1/2 the pot. But, thinking like I think you are thinking (may be wrong), that 7% was a real BIOTCH. I was getting scooped monster pots by, really, average players playing patient games.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.
Beset, this guy should be banned on account of being ...

[willmay3]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just to share with you, while I was losing all this money at PLO8 I was winning an incredibl amount of pots at show down, over 93%. That means in 93% of the time I was winning at least 1/2 the pot. But, thinking like I think you are thinking (may be wrong), that 7% was a real BIOTCH. I was getting scooped monster pots by, really, average players playing patient games.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.
Beset, this guy should be banned on account of being a fking idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr. Balz, you have no idea. After awhile you'd think I'd get a clue wouldn't you? Thank God for Limit HE which allowed me to play 1200 hours of poker last year and make a big, fat, whopping $6, for an earn rate of 1/2 of 1 cent per hour ! Just awesome!

So, now I still play PLO8 but I'm a actually winning (new thing for me). We'll see if it keeps up.

With Regards,

Will

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just to share with you, while I was losing all this money at PLO8 I was winning an incredibl amount of pots at show down, over 93%. That means in 93% of the time I was winning at least 1/2 the pot. But, thinking like I think you are thinking (may be wrong), that 7% was a real BIOTCH. I was getting scooped monster pots by, really, average players playing patient games.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.
Beset, this guy should be banned on account of being a fking idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr. Balz, you have no idea. After awhile you'd think I'd get a clue wouldn't you? Thank God for Limit HE which allowed me to play 1200 hours of poker last year and make a big, fat, whopping $6, for an earn rate of 1/2 of 1 cent per hour ! Just awesome!

So, now I still play PLO8 but I'm a actually winning (new thing for me). We'll see if it keeps up.

With Regards,

Will

[/ QUOTE ]
I should be clearer. Winning 93% of pots at showdown is either a lie or a misunderstanding. It is impossible to do, unless you *intentionally* call to the river and then fold every hand where you don't hold the nuts. And if you do have W$SD of 93%, it is virtually impossible to be a losing player. Take a look at any common PTO database; no player with a reasonable # of hands can have the stats you describe. 93% & losing is just about impossible to explain, statistically, for a rational player to arrive at.

Prove me wrong if you like, just take a PTO screenshot (I assume this is where your information comes from).

Why is this a questionable laydown? It should've been layed down before the flop. But after you have nothing but K's, what's the debate here? Release it like a disease.

[ QUOTE ]
It should've been layed down before the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. If you are routinely folding KK23 preflop, especially in position, you are not maximizing your win rate. This hand is extremely playable.

[beset7]

I wish could win 93% at SD in ANY game. That'd be be the nuts.