Fun with AKs

[Harv72b]

The table isn't nearly as good as the preflop action here would indicate. UTG+2 is an unknown who just sat down. MP1 is tight and very aggressive--I wouldn't say he's really all that good, but he understands aggression and how to use it (not always when). CO is a little too loose and passive, but not terribly so in either regard. BB is very loose (about 40 VPIP over 120 hand sample) with about average aggression pre- & postflop.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (20.40 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (12.70 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, intending to overcall for 1 bet

Debatable decisions on every street, probably. FWIW, my thinking was as follows on possible holdings:

UTG+2: ? No way to know without a read, but I'm running on the assumption that he's holding another big ace until proven otherwise.
MP1: Either another AK or an underpair to the Q. He would've made his presence known on the flop if he hit anything.
CO: God only knows. He could be in here with a sooted ace, a big offsuit ace, or a pocket pair. Whichever it is, he's never going to fold it for 1 bet.
BB: At least one overcard to the flop or some sort of pair. He probably started with either a pocket pair, two cards higher than 9, an ace, two sooted cards, or two offsuit connectors.

[ReadyEddie]

No way.

if CO bets and everyone else calls i'm folding, if CO bets and 2 people call i'm folding. I'm not even sure on the flop bet.

But considering the PF actions and everyone sticking around on that flop, I dont even think you have enough outs to stay around. You could very well be behind AQ (or even A9), 2 of your "outs" complete the flush, and the K completes an unlikely straight, and hits KQ. I think there has to be a lot of discounting here, and if 2 people like their hand enough to continue in this pot then i think i let it go

[lozen]

I struggle with this one also. You do have position. If your plan is to call down on river than you should bet the turn if chk raised fold. Than if you miss the river I check it down.
Personally I would be checking the turn and seeing if the river helps. I see MP 1 on tens or jacks and calling you down

[Jake (The Snake)]

I've been trying to tone down my aggression after raising preflop some so I'm really interested in everyone's opinion on this too.

I do know this though, this flop sucks and we are just about never going to get people to fold for one bet.

[newhizzle]

are you intending to overcall if CO bets turn or if someone bets river?

i really hate intending to overcall on the river if thats what your talking about, whoever bets it would have to be a moron to bluff into this field on this board after the action so far in my oppinion, i really dont see any way you could have the best hand, some donkey at least has a pair

i would probably see another card if you are talking about overcalling on the turn if CO bets

i also think the flop is a check

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
are you intending to overcall if CO bets turn or if someone bets river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, I meant on the turn. I'm folding to a river bet unimproved, although I'll probably call 1 on the river if CO bets and everyone else folds.

[Scruff]

If you check the flop and it gets checked by the cutoff (possible since he didn't raise you), you have options on the turn.

If it's bet, you can raise and knock some people out - heck if the flush draw is the bettor, you are 2:1 (assuming he doesn't have a pair yet and has 15 outs since you don't either) to win the hand. Or if it's checked again, you can bet and they are only getting 11:1 instead of 20:1 on the flop bet. No one is folding for one bet on the flop - heck, 22 has good enough odds to call.

SSHE has a nice dissertation on this, go to page 163 . . . there's not a lot you can do here, but I think checking the flop and raising/betting the turn is the best course of action. Of course if it's bet and raised to you on the turn, you have an easy fold.

[newhizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
are you intending to overcall if CO bets turn or if someone bets river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, I meant on the turn. I'm folding to a river bet unimproved, although I'll probably call 1 on the river if CO bets and everyone else folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

cool, i really dont know how clean your outs are here, but yeah, im seeing a river if i can get by for one bet getting mad-to-1

I don't know if that flop bet really accomplish that much; nobody will fold with for example a pair of threes or some weak draw, and you're most probably behind. The only reason would be to get a free card on the turn, but hoping for that after the preflop action is a little too much. I'd probably check the flop and call one bet.

[Harv72b]

Yeah, I'm not so sure about the flop bet either, in retrospect. My reasoning was that betting might thin the field some (although probably only folding hands that I don't mind sticking around), and I could shoot for a free card if the turn didn't hit me. I also reasoned that I could get some good information out of the bet, as a raise or check/raise probably means that I'm way, way behind (although MP1 knows enough to check/raise that big a field with a flush draw).

[slavic]

One of the lasting things in my mind that Tommy posted on a particularly overplayed AK ny yours truelly.

"Just because I raised does not obligate me to bet."

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'm not so sure about the flop bet either, in retrospect. My reasoning was that betting might thin the field some (although probably only folding hands that I don't mind sticking around), and I could shoot for a free card if the turn didn't hit me. I also reasoned that I could get some good information out of the bet, as a raise or check/raise probably means that I'm way, way behind (although MP1 knows enough to check/raise that big a field with a flush draw).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that good old information raise /images/graemlins/smile.gif But since you really must call a raise (a raise that's actually quite likely) it still sucks, further making a flop check the correct play /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Wired Jokers]

I just don't know what a flop bet will get you here. CO is passive, and can't be counted on to raise (although he has to have something decent - he called 4 cold!)

I think my plan would be to check the flop, hope it gets checked through, and then hope for a bet from someone in front, so I could raise the turn.

If I thought there was a chance I could win this hand UI, I like the flop bet.

I don't think that's the case. I check the flop.

[Harv72b]

I'm pretty sure that y'all are right--betting on the flop wasn't really a good idea given the cast of characters I was up against and the size of the pot. Just call it a reflex, k? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I got bailed out on the turn--CO bet, BB &amp; UTG+2 folded, and MP1 check/raised allowing me to fold in good conscience. MP1 had turned a set of sevens, while CO called down with TT (river was an offsuit 8).