Bad luck or Bad Play at $2-$4

[SoBeDude]

I'm in the BB with 9s Jh. 5 callers, I check.

Flop comes Js 7c 9c. Ok, I flopped 2 pair against the field but there is a flush draw out.

I check with the intention of check-raising. Its unbelievably checked around. yuk. oh well.

Turn is a Jc. Ok, I have a full house but the flush got there. I should get some action now!

So I check again.

guy in LP checks, I call. everyone else folds. crap.

River is 8c. I check again assuming LP will surely bet again, he checks.

I rake a tiny pot. woohoo.

And this was a normally loose table.

Was I wrong to think I'd get action on this hand and not bet out?

-Scott

[lil']

On the flop, I usually bet out, but if you want to try to CR that's cool.

Ooooo, why check the turn, especially if the flop was checked around? Why assume there is a flush? You can assume a flush draw who would call you if you bet, but by checking you let a draw see the river for nothing.

[Uston]

Was I wrong to think I'd get action on this hand and not bet out?

Thinking you're going to get action on this hand is a reason to bet the flop and hope to get raised.

[Nottom]

I really don't like trying to checkraise with a hand like this unless I know there is someone in LP who will bet for me. So many people will call that flop bet in most 2/4 games that to miss those bets really hurts.

On the turn, again I think you need to bet out and hope that someone will have made a flush and will raise you so you can 3-bet. I think going for the over call is very dangerous on this sort of board as well since no one bet the flop which generally means no one has a J. Since now the top card pairs and brings in the flush, people are very unlikely to stay in unless they have a big club, in which case they will call 2-bets anyway.

On the river you have to bet, with the 4-flush on board a small flush won't bet it for you but will still call.

Just my thoughts ...

[SoBeDude]

with the flush draw on the board, I think its important to make it expensive for people to draw, hence the check-raise plan.

And this is 2-4 online. very few flops get raised but most get bet. So if I want it raised I need to do it myself.

And if I think I'm going to get action, doesn't that justify my decision to check-raise?

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

On the river you have to bet, with the 4-flush on board a small flush won't bet it for you but will still call.

Even with the LP guy betting the turn?

But I think you're probably right. I should have bet the river.

Thanks

-Scott

[bernie]

you missed the c/r on the flop, at least bet out on the turn. no one will put you on a J figuring youd have bet a J on the flop. isnt missing one c/r enough?

b

[SoBeDude]

Hi Bernie,

You're probably right. But my thinking was I didn't want to represent the flush by betting out. I think having shown no aggression at all this hand, if I bet out when the flush comes, I'm going to fold everyone except a made flush. I was hoping that by checking someone would bet, perhaps someone would call, then I could raise.

If the flush had not arrived on the turn I would have bet out for sure.

Is my thinking flawed here?

Thanks

-Scott

[bernie]

"And if I think I'm going to get action, doesn't that justify my decision to check-raise? "

action also can indicate callers, not just bettors.

on the flop youd like a LP bettor to bet. but when it gets checked around, you dont try for another c/r on the turn. you can bet out hoping for the flush to maybe raise

b

[bernie]

"if I bet out when the flush comes, I'm going to fold everyone except a made flush. I was hoping that by checking someone would bet, perhaps someone would call, then I could raise."

wouldnt this mean that if someone else bet, theyre going to also fold everyone except the made flush or higher flush draw?

if 'perhaps' someone would call someone else's bet, wouldnt they 'perhaps' call yours too? /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

b

[Uston]

You flopped a huge hand in a small, unraised pot and it seems as though your main concern is thinning the field. Let's say it's checked to a late position guy who bets. If you check-raise do you really expect a flush draw to fold? True, you'd be charging him a little bit more to draw but not to the point where you'd be inducing a mistake.

[Nottom]

I agree that you want to make the flush draws pay, but a check-raise doesn't make it a mistake for the flush to pay and it just pushes out all the hands you want to hang around (Ax, 9x) that are drawing to 3 outs or less but will still often put in one bet here. Also an LP flush draw may still raise for a free card giving you a chance to 3-bet the field. I'm much more likely to try for a check-raise here with something like KJ than top-two pair.

[SoBeDude]

wouldnt this mean that if someone else bet, theyre going to also fold everyone except the made flush or higher flush draw?

except for the guy who bets, who might take a shot at it with middle pair or something, but won't call a bet that screams "made flush"...

-Scott

[MarkD]

I've gone both ways on hands like these and at this point I can safely say that I feel better when I bet the turn. More people call then bet, you might be surprised what will call you on the turn.

Conversely sometimes you will bet and everyone will fold. I don't know what the absolute correct answer is, but if I have multiple opponents I will bet there everytime (I hope).