Easy fold or Too much in pot 20 40 at borgata

The game plays very loose at times. The big blind is a good player who usually plays at higher limits, seems like a solid player but runs pretty bad this particular session. The UTG +1 is pretty loose but capable of making a good play post flop. 4 limp I am on the button with Jc9c and limp. Small blind limps BB raises. All call. Flop is Q 10 2 rainbow. BB bets 3 callers, I raise. BB three bets. UTG+1 calls and I call. Three handed to the turn. Turn is a jack. BB bets, and we both call. BB bets blind pre-river. River comes an offsuit king giving me the low end straight. UTG+1 immediatly raises. I ????

[BigEndian]

You haven't told us much about UTG+1's aggressiveness. But he would have to be Mother Teresa for me to fold this. I call looking for the overcall.

P.S. Paragraphs are your friend.

- Jim

Played with him for about 10 minutes, noticed him play more preflop, and showed aggression (controlled) postflop. Sample size of about 8-10 hands.

[WillyTrailer]

I'm too lazy to count the pot size for you. count the bets and see how often it has to happen that neither of them have an Ace for your call to be profitable. Keep in mind that you're splitting with another 9 and will get reraised (and have to fold) when BB has an Ace.

as mentioned above, reads would help.

sorry for hte generic response, but it's all I got without further info from you.

-WT

[Sykes]

Make it 3 bets so he folds his 9.

Seriously.

[bobbyi]

I would cap the flop and take a free card on the turn if I don't improve. If you don't get the free card, the flop cap costs you nothing in expectation anyway because you are going to end up with the best hand about a third of the time here and neither opponent is folding for one more bet as the cap protects you against BB raising again and driving the other guy out.

Most of the time, they will both check to you on the turn if you cap. On a QT2r flop, there aren't many strong draws available, so BB is likely to give you credit for a strong hand here rather than a draw and check the turn. Even if he doesn't give you credit for strength, he may try to check-raise the turn to protect his hand in this large pot. One way or another, you get a free card often. Since your jack high is worthless unimproved, you don't have to worry about a turn check causing you to get bluffed out on the river.

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Make it 3 bets so he folds his 9.

Seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is pretty bad advice.

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The big blind is a good player who usually plays at higher limits, seems like a solid player but runs pretty bad this particular session.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you know his name?

i think this is a fold at the 20/40. i've played this game a lot the last few months. very rarely you'll see players capable of putting 2 bets in on a KQJTX board to fold out a lower straight. i didn't count the pot but i don't think you're good there anywhere close to what need to make money there calling 2 cold. you also have to worry about the BB waking up and 3-betting.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Make it 3 bets so he folds his 9.

Seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is pretty bad advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know.

At first it was going to be a joking post, but then I realized it makes sense.

I don't think the pot is big enough to overcall with the bottom end of the straight with one other behind you (who could have AK since he bet in the dark), UTG+1 could be making a move with almost any 2 here including a 9, and I don't know about you, but I usually fold bottom ends of straights once I get 3-bet after I raised on a 4 to a straight board (in a full ring game obv).

So... joke turns out serious.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The big blind is a good player who usually plays at higher limits, seems like a solid player but runs pretty bad this particular session.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you know his name?

i think this is a fold at the 20/40. i've played this game a lot the last few months. very rarely you'll see players capable of putting 2 bets in on a KQJTX board to fold out a lower straight. i didn't count the pot but i don't think you're good there anywhere close to what need to make money there calling 2 cold. you also have to worry about the BB waking up and 3-betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[Jeffage]

I really don't get why you raise the flop here with callers inbetween. You are making it easy for the BB to clear out the field when you have a drawing hand that wants customers. In this spot, it's very likely to be reraised so you are basically charging yourself to draw.

Jeff

[chief444]

Two things:

First...realize that when a player you describe bets into 6 opponents your flop raise is getting 3-bet almost always. So there's not as much value as it seems at first...and the only way you're getting a "free card" is by capping and even then not always.

Second...I'd say BB has an ace here (either AA or AQ) a little more than half of the time. UTG+1 I'd say almost always is raising an ace. So I think you could lay it down on the river.

[onegymrat]

Hi Jeff,

Wouldn't this move be correct since there are THREE callers, as opposed to say, one caller? Or the fact that the bet is done by SB into a large field, which oozes of 3-bet if raised, that the "free card" play be abandoned?

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
First...realize that when a player you describe bets into 6 opponents your flop raise is getting 3-bet almost always. So there's not as much value as it seems at first...and the only way you're getting a "free card" is by capping and even then not always

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the board as to what the guy is betting into the field with. A 2-tone board could easily be a draw. This being a rainbow board, it can be more likely he has a hand at this point. Or a better draw than yours.

However, when he bets and there are 3 callers to you, it's still a pretty easy raise.

b

[chief444]

Bernie,

Even a draw is a draw like AK + flush or AJ + flush which also very well may 3-bet in this pot. So there really isn't as much value as it appears...that is...5-handed OESD. Not to mention a K will occasionally give him a second best hand and almost always be subject to redraws. I'm not saying it's really a bad raise. But I was just pointing out that the flop result of the raise will be a typical flop result...being BB 3-bets and 3 or maybe 4 if he's lucky see the turn. Plus...if it is a two toned board...that certainly doesn't help his equity. I don't think it's an easy raise. Not at all considering the benefit of a free card is almost never there. Not really bad but certainly not easy and I'd just call personally.

Chief

If you are going to veen consider putting money into this pot a three bet is far superior to a cold call. You would be cold calling for at best half the pot and this at least gives you a shot at the whole thing. I still wouldnt put any money in though.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to veen consider putting money into this pot a three bet is far superior to a cold call. You would be cold calling for at best half the pot and this at least gives you a shot at the whole thing. I still wouldnt put any money in though.

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Yes, 3-betting intending to fold to a 4-bet is a terrific idea where people are much too passive on the river.

Thank you all for the advices. Three betting here never crossed my mind, I believe it to be too aggressive and a nine surely will call most of the time.

The other thing that gave me a glimpse of hope into calling was the fact that BB was running bad and slightly tilting, only slightly though.

On the other hand he showed such a strength of a AA or KK. I dont think he will three bet flop with AK. Most likely aces.

The UTG +1 seem to be on a draw and could easily play AJ or A10 the same way.

Anyway what happened was that BB showed KK (set of kings) and folded as UTG +1 showed the same hand as mine.