When Do you Call it quits???

[Ed S.]

In Holdem' at any level, when do you call it quits? Let's say the game is great, your not tired nor drunk and you are on top of your game. When do you call it? No matter if you are up or down so far for that session. Because where ever I go and what ever I read, people tell you don't set a time or a stop loss. Now in theory if you can keep at your best, couldn't you play indefinitely? I know we couldn't do that because we would eventually be sleep deprived. But how does one gauge when its time to leave, with what I said above?


Ed S.

[monkeyboy]

i've heard 30 big bets (up or down) is a good rule.

[Ed S.]

Any particular reasoning behind it? Or just a rule of thumb is it?


Ed S.

[M2d]

My general rule of thumb is: quit before my wife gets seriously pissed that I'm not home.
At other times, If I'm tired, I'm gone. If the lineup changes, I'm gone. If I've been on a losing streak, and I need to lock up a win so I feel wonderful about myself again; I'm gone. If the stripers (not strippers) are running in the bay; I'm gone (ditto the halibut and salmon). If Monk is about to come on, I'm gone.

[rtrombone]

People have posted at length on this topic before. I personally have been flamed over my stance. I don't care, though, because I think I'm right. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

Theoretically, you should continue to play in a game as long as you have an edge. Conversely, you should stop as soon as you lose your edge, or if you would have a greater edge in another game.

What determines the size of your edge? How well your opponents play and how close you are to your "A" game. Theoretically, that's it. I think the first factor is more important, as it's very easy to beat the ultra-soft games and pretty much impossible to beat the very tough games, regardless of how you're playing on a particular night.

The problem is that it's not always easy to determine how great your edge is at the moment. With experience, you can do it. I know I've played a hand poorly as soon as it's over. You should be constantly asking yourself, could I have done this or that differently? You get to the point, too, where you see the warning signs. You start to play too loose or too tight pre-flop (yes, sometimes you can tighten up too much). You start to play too passively post-flop because you've been burned so many times. Or maybe you play too aggressively because you're just pissed off. You chase, trying to lay a bad beat on someone who's done it to you the whole night. You fold when you maybe should have called, thinking you're not going to get there, or get there only to find out you were drawing dead.

The reason why a hard and fast rule like the 30 big bet rule is a good idea is precisely because it's sometimes hard to know where you're at, edge-wise. It protects you on those nights when you think you're just running bad, but you're actually playing like [censored]. The rule applies only to losses, though. I highly doubt anyone here would agree with a rule that you should leave after you've won such-and-such big bets. Maybe if you're a poor player and will inevitably give back your winnings if you continue playing.

Here's where I disagree with most 2+2ers. I believe that luck is a big part of poker, and if you're running bad on any given night, you can't do a thing about it. Many experienced players don't follow a 30 or 50 big bet rule because they feel they will always know whether or not they still have an edge, and edge is all that matters. I continue to abide by the 30 big bet rule to protect myself on the nights I'm running bad.

Just last night I was running horribly, and I know I could've played better, especially toward the end when I just wanted to go home. But I'm certain that most of it was plain old bad luck. If you read david ross' posts in the general forum, you'll see plenty of examples of sessions where everything that can go wrong, does. When you keep running into big hands (QQ vs. KK, KK vs. AA, AK vs. flopped sets) and bad beats (turned sets, rivered two pairs, back door flushes), it may be time to call it a night. There will still be good games the next day or whenever you play again. Why not save your money for a night when you're running better?

Don't underestimate the gigantic role luck plays in poker. There was a guy at my table last night (15-30) who was one of the worst players I'd ever seen. He played virtually every hand and raised and reraised with hands like A2 and 76, both offsuit. He dropped over a grand very quickly, most of it to a mediocre player who was running very good (this is a guy who flopped at least 4 sets and turned and rivered several more in a few hours' time). The thing is, the horrible player was telling us about how he could do no wrong the other night. Same game, 15-30, only the deck was hitting him in the face. He said he would win the majority of the pots he entered, which means he won almost every hand. He jokingly told us that we're lucky we weren't in that game. He says he left a $2500 winner.

Personally, I'm glad I wasn't at his table during his rush. On some nights, you're completely helpless at the table. It can't be too -EV to just leave. It's not as if you can't find a good game 365 days a year.

There was a guy at the 25-50 table next to ours who was running over the table. Apparently, he's a crazy loose player who was just running good. A guy at my table said the 25-50 guy had sat down in a 15 game a few nights before and dropped a rack in less than an hour. But last night he must have been catching all kinds of cards, because at one point he had 8 racks and a mountain of chips in front of him. He left with a little over 8 racks ($4000). During his rush, he won a lot of money from some very good players.

I say screw it, I'd rather wait for a night when the deck isn't hitting the guy full-on in the face. EV-wise, it's gotta be the same, right? His game isn't going to be any better a week from now. But maybe his luck will be worse.

[Ulysses]

His game isn't going to be any better a week from now.

But he probably won't have 8 racks with him.

[Fitz]

All things being equal, good game, playing well, etc. I quit when I quit wanting to play my cards. There usually comes a point where I really don't want to play 'em anymore, and that is where I call it quits. Remember, it is all just one long session; there will be another good game at another time.

Good luck,

[bernie]

when i try my ATM for another rebuy and my account says 'insufficient funds'

i actually recommend for beginners to eventually go on tilt to know what it feels like and how it affects their game. (preferrably on a cheap limit table) it could affect one's game different than anothers. knowing the warning signs goes a long way in knowing when you should leave. you just have to recognize your own signs and limitations.

it may be a gravy game, but youre tired and getting a little timid. easing off on the betting. you leave.

you may get a great hand cracked, get pissed and start jammiing pots. time to leave.

you may be up a certain amount and start playing safer and a little weak tight because you dont want to blow any back. time to leave.

ive had a stop loss. because i know the amount it takes to get to me and ive had enough. ive expanded that, but it took awhile. id use a time or stop loss gauge until your very confident in youre game. then ease it off.

but even then, know your limitations and how certain points of winning and losing affect your game.

just some ideas

b

[Ulysses]

i actually recommend for beginners to eventually go on tilt to know what it feels like and how it affects their game.

You should write a book.

[bernie]

i probably worded it wrong. since no one can conciously go on tilt without knowing what it is.

however, i think the more one knows about their own tilt factor and awareness of it, is beneficial. recognizing the signs of it can also help one to overcome it and eventually minimize it. it is a hurdle many players dont get over. kind of like the irate table coaches who repeatedly blow chips because of a simple bad beat.

of course another counteraction to tilt is better understanding of the game. which one may not realize why they shouldnt mind a suckout and hence, get peeved and go on tilt.

btw...im not recommending one go and blow their whole roll in a session. many times they may not realize they were on tilt til the next day when they re analyze their game. then look into why they played that way.

b

[clovenhoof]

Seems to preserve the sanity better than all the others.

And, it's easy to remember.

'hoof

[Tommy Angelo]

"when do you call it quits?"

Between boredom and focus, pain and reward, between tired and restless, not minding the score.

[rigoletto]

Between pain and reward
focus and bore
between tired and restless
not minding the score.

[Girchuck]

I have a modified stop-loss rule.
After I reach predetermined amount up or down, I continue playing, until I lose five pots in a row that contained my money. If I win a pot before I lose five in a row, I reset the count.

[Hotchile]

Four basic rules that I live by/with:

1) The first time that I think "I should go". Only reason being that I have become distracted or preoccupied with the idea of leaving. I need all the attention I can muster to beat most games.

2) As soon as I start to feel that the other people in the game are playing really well against me. In most cases it's not true, but it usually indicates that I am not playing well against them.

3) Luck. I'm not having any. Not too concerned about the luck factor itself, but very concerned that my ability to take a pot without showing the best hand. Unfortunately, when losing, other players will often label you as "unlucky" and begin calling down all of your bets. Good if you have a hand to go with those bets, not good if you are trying to steal one.
Stealing is a big part of the game, if you suddenly can't get away with it, it is time to call it a day.

4) Irritation. I am a poker fanatic but I have very little use for players berating others or generally acting like idiots. There gets to be a time when my peace of mind outweighs my desire to make another 5BB's assuming that I could make 5BB's while really wanting to punch somebody in the nose.

HC

[rtrombone]

There is an interesting phenomenon that I've read about in some books and have witnessed on the nights I'm running bad. I believe I mentioned it in one of my older posts. It has to do with your table image when you haven't won a pot in hours and haven't been able to show down any kind of good hand. When this happens, it seems like a lot people at the table lose respect for your play. They think, this guy sucks, he's been losing all night and hasn't won a single hand. It doesn't matter that you've been playing very tight and been bleeding to death, and that the times you've lost big you've driven the action only to get sucked out on.

Your weakened table image prevents you from semi-bluffing effectively. People are more likely to call your bets because they haven't seen you win in ages. Contrast this on the nights when you're running good, when you win almost every pot you enter and when a raise scares your opponents because it almost always means a big, big hand. On my good nights, I find I'm able to pick up the blinds more easily and win pots without a showdown. My pre-flop raises effectively narrow the field. On my bad nights, the entire table (and the two adjacent tables, too) cold call my pre-flop raises. They also call all my flop bets. On these nights you're really limited to betting for value. Unfortunately, you can't bet for value if you never have a hand with any value.

Funny how things work at the poker table.

[Ulysses]

I usually buy in for two racks or so. If I lose a rack, I'll buy in another rack or two. Sometimes more. Give it a try.

[baseball38]

Great question! I judge it on how I feel. If I am tired I get up and go, if I fell things start to run bad I get up and go. I think this is one of those topics where each indiviual situation dictates.

baseball38 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

[Hotchile]

I can't think of any worse feeling at a poker table than picking up pocket aces utg, raising and being called in 8 spots. Don't get me wrong, I love the action, but I don't like that my raises and bets have lost all respect. I find that when this happens, I'm either in for a huge win because I make some nice hands and get paid handsomely, or, I'm going home with a lot less money (and hair) because I got called down 5 times by bottom pair when I had a nut flush draw.

HC

[J_V]

I can think of a worse feeling than raising AA and getting called in 8 spots....not getting called at all is one.

[Huh]

For real? I love it when the table calls my aces. As Dynasty is always so quick to point out, the best situation for aces is a capped family pot. Actually, I don't think that's true. I think the best situation is when people call a third bet, and than fold to your cap(I love dead money).

Whenever I get two great hands in a row, My reflex is always, oh shi* now the whole table is gonna call me down. And then I force myself to think "Cool!".

-Huh

-Huh

[Ed S.]

"People have posted at length on this topic before. I personally have been flamed over my stance. I don't care, though, because I think I'm right."


Do you recall how long ago and where I can find this topic that was talked about long ago?

Ed S.