Value bet river vs. a habitual check raiser?

[Inthacup]

Playing in a pretty decent 5 10 game online. I haven't been at the table very long, but I've already witnessed BB check raise several times.

I open raise in B5, B1 cold calls, SB folds, BB(check-raiser) calls.

Flop: 6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

BB bets out, I raise, B1 folds, BB calls. I've seen him do this several times with draws, mid pairs and the like. I seriously doubt he has a 2.

Turn: 6 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

He checks, I bet, he thinks and calls.

River: K /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

He checks and I hear the music from jaws start playing. I beat an A and a lower pocket pair(besides 66 and 22), I lose to the flush, a K, a 6 and a 2. Do you value bet here? I think this is a little more complicated than usual because this leaves a good opprotunity for BB to check-raise. There's a good chance the K hit my hand if I wasn't strong already. So if he has a power hand, then I'm all lined up to bet the river. Bet here anyways or(dare I say it?) check behind

[Robk]

I would check unless he is a complete calling station. The K makes it very hard for a worse pair or ace high to call.

[bernie]

i dont think he has a 2 either. but a 6 or a flush draw? is he likely to chase? or does he only call this type of board with a solid draw...

he did call the turn too...so he must have something to go for. unless he, as asked above, chases alot. though i dont think he'd be chasing a K.

if he isnt likely to c/r bluff, i think you can bet here and fold to a raise. but then again, checking behind looks good too.

unknown, i may check behind because then i can see what he's been calling with without him folding. this is info i can use on later hands and may be worth losing an additional bet for or the possibility of him folding.

but he may just be calling with a mid pair. and will call it out. though since the K hit, if he's putting you on AK he may fold also. id much rather have had a Q or less hit the river.

b

[JTG51]

I don't see your hand anywhere in the post. Am I missing it? If it's not there, I find it really funny that you've already gotten two replies analyzing your play without them knowing what pair you have.

[ElSapo]

...77-QQ, if I read the post right. But he didn't say. And it's 2 a.m. and I may just not see it. And maybe the hand plays the same regardless of which pair it is.

[JTG51]

I'm guessing it's QQ or JJ, and I agree that the hand plays similarly either way, it just struck me as funny.

[Dynasty]

I don't see your hand anywhere in the post...If it's not there, I find it really funny that you've already gotten two replies analyzing your play without them knowing what pair you have.

Amazingly, the one thing bernie's playing advice doesn't depend on is what cards you are holding.

[Dynasty]

And maybe the hand plays the same regardless of which pair it is.

No. QQ and 77 specifically definitely play differently. So do the pairs in the middle of that range.

For example, if you were up against a player who wasn't prone to checkraise, you would definitely be thinking differently about the hands. With QQ, I would be inclined to value bet. With 77, if I bet it would often to be to make a better hand (88-TT) fold if I thought my opponent may have a pocket pair. With TT and 99, I may check because I don't fear an overpair but know a flush will almost certainly call.

Against this opponent, it's a tricky spot. I think I still want to value bet with the best pocket pairs (QQ and JJ) but am more willing to check with TT and lower.

[Robk]

I find it really funny that you've already gotten two replies analyzing your play without them knowing what pair you have.

I did my best Phil Hellmuth impression. I closed my eyes and thought real hard... and it just popped into my head: Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif

[Inthacup]

Ooops! I was pretty tired when writing my post. Good job though on the hand reading. I had Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif . I think you can narrow my hand down to 1 of 2 hands by the way I posted, which you guys did very well.

[bernie]

i figured him for Qs or Js. he said only the K beats him as far as pair.

but i do agree that with 77 a bet is worth it if you can make a bigger/mid pair to fold. i just didnt figure him having a lower pair. B5 is an EMP isnt it? isnt B8 and 9 the blinds? not sure about the 'B' thing.

b

[bernie]

ill add on to my reply. even though i just looked at his correction, but to be complete. if i held 77, i wouldnt mind the K or A hitting the river. it's a nice bluff card and may help a better hand to fold.

b

[Inthacup]

I checked behind. Against a more straightforward opponent, I think I would have bet. I wasn't very pleased with the check at the time, but upon further review I think that the amount of value in this hand is very thin. Especially if I'm going to fold to a check-raise.

results: I was awarded the pot. When going back and checking the hand history, it turns out he had A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif . I think he would have payed me off on this as would a lower pocket pair. Oh well, live and learn.