Why Can't I Move Up?

[Dave H.]

I'm almost embarrassed...no, dammit, I AM embarrassed to admit this. In fact, if I didn't know for a fact that others have experienced it, I WOULDN'T admit it...I CAN'T MOVE TO THE NEXT LEVEL.

Ok, now that I've admitted it, I'm waiting for relief...I knew it, I still feel bad!

I started at .02/.04 about a year and a half ago with $12 of "their" money. I've only invested "my own money" in 4 books (the best ones suggested on this site) and they're worn out from having been read so many times. I wouldn't advance until I had the required 300 BB for the next level and then I'd require an extra 100 BB cushion for myself before advancing. When I moved up, I made a promise to myself that, if I got hit immediately with a 50 BB loss, I'd move back down until I regained the loss. Well, that 50 BB loss never happened immediately, so I never had to move down.

I played through the .02/.04, .05/.10, .10/.20, and .25/.50 levels and it took me until last April to get the required bankroll ($400 in my case) to play the .50/$1 tables.

When I had the bankroll to play $1/$2 ($800), I put my big toe in, won a few hands, and chickened right out. I did this several times, but couldn't muster the WHATEVER to continue and dropped back down to .50/$1 again. Then when I had enough to play $2/$4 ($1600), I tried the $1/$2 and the $2/$4 tables. The same *&(%$# thing happened. I won a little money, and then that ridiculous fear overpowered me and I moved back down to .50/$1

I even took a shot at $3/$6 when my roll got to $2,400 and won there and backed down again!!!

My sample size at $1/$2, $2/$4, and $3/$6 is ridiculously low so I certainly can't say I'm a winner at those levels by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't play a lot of bonuses and I have rakeback at only two sites, so those two items haven't contributed a great deal to my winnings. I have now played approximately 200,000 hands at .50/$1 and have a win rate (EXclusive of rakeback and bonuses) of 10 BB per hour playing roughly 20 hours per week over the last 10 months and 4 tabling for the most part.

I obviously have WAAAY more than I need, even for a shot at $5/$10. I have about $9,000 now.

I was a very conservative player initially and it took a lot to go from weak passive to weak tight to TAG, but advice on this forum got me there.

Can I get some opinions, advice, comments, and maybe hear from others who are experiencing, or have experienced this kind of "move up" fear. It's really the only thing I hate about poker!

Thanx much!

[soko]

[ QUOTE ]
It's really the only thing I hate about myself !

[/ QUOTE ]

Play where you feel comfortable, there are swings and if the money means so much that a downswing at a higher level will shatter your emotions just play at a lower limit until you feel comfortable. the money obviously means more than it should.

The players arent that much better when you move up, it just becomes more rare to find a chip spewing money donator.

It's the old cliche, you never know until you try!

I was somewhat in the same shoes as you for a time, I deposit $200 with $100 bonus and play .5/1 for about 5 months up to $1600, I give 1/2 a try and lose about $300 in about 1000 hands, it devastated me so much I quit for about 3 months. Decided I was going to reread SSHE, Came back and redeposited the money and jumped right in to $2/4, Have been up since but not without some violent swings (both emotions and bankroll) but I laugh at the idea of me ever moving back down to .5/1, 1/2, no way.

[rwanger]

If you multitable...try making just 1 of those tables the next limit up from where you are comfortable.

If you have a real job, convince yourself that you have limited time to play poker, and need to make it worth your time (thus, play for higher stakes).

I used to be afraid every time I moved up, but now it doesn't happen as much anymore. I'm not sure why, but part of the reason is because I am overrolled for the limit I'm stepping up to, so the money doesn't matter. I'm more excited by the prospect of making more $/hr.

Do you play a lot of tournaments? I've found that after I finally hit the point where I understood just how aggressive you need to be in tournaments (in order to live, you must be willing to die), chips at the table started to lose their value in terms of real money. They are just chips. All that matters is the size of your bet/call/raise compared to the amount in the pot. Making correct decisions has nothing to do with actual $ amounts.

[Bats]

Why do you play poker? What are your goals? Starting with $100, over the past year I've built that to $400 slowly moved up from .05/.1 to .5/1 and 1/2. About four times I've ventured into 2/4. That does scare me since it's beyond my bankroll, but the level of play wasn't that much tougher than 1/2. (Maybe it goes up exponentially at some point.) In any event, my goal is to make a few hundred bucks a month to buy some extra toys and dinners out. I think I can do that when I move to 2/4 or maybe 3/6.

So, why do you want so badly to move up? And more to the point, why are you so afraid of losing money? You are clearly very careful about playing within your means, so going bankrupt probably isn't an issue. How old are you? Are you a college kid or (like me) a middle aged man with kids to support? I came from a low-income family, and even though I'm now comfortably middle-class, I stil have problems buying some little extras that I can logically afford. Somehow if I can buy them with poker money, it doesn't count as being a spendthrift. Identifying why you are afraid of losing a little money that you can probably afford might help with the fear. To overcome it, do what you've started doing, but make yourself committ to a low, but very certain number of hours a week at the next level, win or lose. I suspect you'll win, or at least not lose very much, and you'll become more comfortable.

Again - try to identify WHY you are afraid of losing the money.

play NL, limit sucks

[AlanBostick]

First, read this and let it sink in: Hooray for you! You have developed into a winning player, and that's no small accomplishment. You deserve to feel proud of it. What's more, you adopted a very sound bankroll management policy and stuck to it, and have been rewarded with an enviable bankroll. You have been wise where many players, even solid winners otherwise like yourself, have been foolish.

Secondly, you don't have to move up if you don't really want to. If you find yourself comfortable playing at $0.50-$1 and uncomfortable playing at $1-$2, then by all means continue playing at $0.50-$1. There is no law that says that winning poker players must move up in playing limits.

Next, you've won yourself quite a bankroll there, much more than you need to play at $1-$2, or even $3-$6. Maybe it would do you some good to take some money out of your account. You can take $1000 out with essentially no impact on risk of ruin at the limits you've been playing or express interest in playing. It would be reasonable to take $2000 or even $5000 or more out, especially if you were satisfied to play at your current level.

One way to look at it is that you've taken $12 of someone else's money and ran it up almost a thousand-fold. That's an incredible accomplishment. Suppose you took just $1000 out, and then through the worst possible luck you lost all the rest. You would still then have $1000 (or the things that $1000 could buy) that you wouldn't have if you hadn't played.

Go ahead, and take money out of your accounts. Buy yourself a new computer, a home entertainment system, fine clothes, fine food, a trip to Puerto Vallarta, a couple of Berkshire Hathaway 'B' shares, first and last month's rent on a new apartment, that used Mercedes you've been eyeing, ... or whatever you want. You deserve to taste the fruit of your success.

All of this has nothing to do with your specific question, about why you can't move up.

To answer that question involves a fair amount of self examination on your part. What was it actually like when you took shots at higher games? Does playing at $1-$2 involve crossing some line that you hadn't crossed before? How is it different to try to play $1-$2 than it was to start playing $0.50-$1 when you had been playing $0.25-$0.50?

Why do you play poker at all? How do you feel about the idea of winning or earning significant money from the game? How do you feel about the idea of losing significant money?

In the end, nobody but you can answer the question of why you aren't moving up. Other people can help you (e.g. a psychologist, therapist, or other counselor), but the real work has to be done by you yourself. And finding the answer might result in your being able to move up ... or it might result in coming to terms with and simply accepting that answer.

[Dave H.]

tyVM for your very thoughtful reply.

I'd love to hear from others...especially those who are experiencing or have experienced this fear.

[Buck_65]

Honestly, you may want to seek out an affordable therapist if you don't have one already. Sometimes fear can control our lives, and the root of your problem likely has nothing to do with poker or the money itself.

I see a counselor about twice a week to discuss "little" things like what you're experiencing. It can always be traced to a root issue within yourself that needs to be dealt with. I have a lot of the same fears, actually. A ton of players on 2+2 are over-rolled for their limit, myself included. It is nice to stay where you're comfortable, but you gotta get used to taking more risks. Once you realize that what you're doing now will never get you where you want to be, it will be easier for you to move up.

If you have someone in your life who you can talk to openly about your fears, it will be a tremendous plus for you. I hope you don't take any offense, and if I'm way off base then disregard my post. However, I'm not unlike yourself by the sounds of it, and with the help of others you can make anything possible. Really.

[bb88]

I'll tell you what, I'm in very much the same position you are. I play 1/2 right now, and have the roll so that I could jump into 5/10 properly bankrolled tomorrow if I wanted to. This summer, I took a shot at 2/4, got smoked, and took a long break, tried 2/4 again, got smoked, and I've moved back down again.

I'm going to play 1/2 until I win back what I lost playing 2/4 and then some. I wanted to make sure whenever I move up I am comfortable. If you aren't completely comfortable then don't consider moving up. Wait it out, and you'll be fine in the end. I still plan on playing 5/10 at some point, but I'm in no rush. You shouldn't be either. Hopefully we'll notice each other sometime at a great 1,000/2,000 game and think "my, how things changed".

[UATrewqaz]

Ditto to me, solid winner at .5/1 and 1/2, dabbled in 2/4 and 3/6 with good results (very small sample of course)

My current role is 3400+ and I'm still playing .5/1 and 1/2

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I need to grow some stones.

My greatest fear is that I'll move up and immediately hit a huge downswing and then feel like I blew a ton of money.

[rwanger]

A thing about moving up and "getting smoked"...you can play well and still get smoked, it just makes it harder to handle. As long as you know you are making the right decisions, then you don't need to move back down. Sometimes though it's easy to start questioning your play when you lose money.

If it's any consolation, I've played 6 or 7 hours of live limit holdem above 5/10 in my life (learned playing lower stakes live, then moving to online, now into NL exclusively). I was a winning player at all limits I had played, and yet in my 6 or 7 hours I still have NOT WON A SINGLE HAND. Yet, I wouldn't hesistate to step into a juicy 20/40 game, because I know in the longrun I could outplay them.

If making the correct play is your objective (not making money), and you are overrolled, you should be able to do it.

If not, like others have suggested, there may be other factors at work...

[Bluffoon]

Do that internet challenge thing. Make 50 big bets at your regular limit and use that to move up to the next limit. Everytime you make 50 big bets at a limit move up to the next one. Whenever you lose 25 big bets at a limit move back down.

This way you can get used to playing higher without risking any more than your original 50 big bets.

[ QUOTE ]
Do that internet challenge thing. Make 50 big bets at your regular limit and use that to move up to the next limit. Everytime you make 50 big bets at a limit move up to the next one. Whenever you lose 25 big bets at a limit move back down.

This way you can get used to playing higher without risking any more than your original 50 big bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually really like this idea.


Personally, I had trouble moving from .5-1 to 1-2 for two reasons:<ul type="square"> it is simple to count the pot odds on the later rounds in .5-1, yet slightly more difficult in 1-2; and I would generally keep a small percentage of my bankroll online, as I would often be playing 5-10 live. [/list]

[angst]

Almost everyone goes through this. You just have to force yourself to continue playing with the increased stakes until you get conditioned. I remember moving up to $5/$10 6-max only a few months ago. I was scared as hell, but after a little while I was conditioned and $5/$10 was the new $3/$6. Now I feel about $10/$20 as I felt about $5/$10 back then.

It is just a matter of getting used to the stakes. Everyone goes through it. Force yourself to continue to play there as long as you are adequately bankrolled. Not moving up when you have both the bankroll and knowledge necessary is just bad management of money.

[Prelude008]

I am REALLY impressed that you won all of that money playing .5/1. Congrats.

If you just want to play and make some money, continue doing what you are doing at .5/1.

If you really want to move up, dedicate a certain amount to that next level. If you win, great keep playing there...and if you lose a portion (you determine) move back down. If it is too stressful for you...maybe you can try to play an orbit at the next level and move back down and build up your endurance by increaing the orbits/time you spend there. You won't go bust with your BR. Good luck!

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
My greatest fear is that I'll move up and immediately hit a huge downswing and then feel like I blew a ton of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the psychology at work here is that you've worked hard to get the money and you don't want to blow it. My suggestion FWIW is to seek out some really soft games at the higher limit you want to play at. It shouldn't be too hard to find one at $2-4 or $3-6. Play one table or two and play your normal game to get used to playing that high. Use PokerTracker to analyze how you played. Ease into playing higher and make it an easy of transition as possible.

[galahad_187]

i used to have this problem
at the beginning of summer i was 8 tabling the 25nl game to the tune of about 20 an hour. i built a bankroll up to about 5k. Sad thing is - i think i was a better player then than i am now. Now 4 tablign the 100 nl game i make much less/hr and my bb/100 is falling. Could be variance, but i think i got rutted in the 25nl game playing so many hands. As you move up parts of your game must change (this may be more important for NL, dunno) and failure to change those parts can be bad. i'm thinking thats what happened to me.

[mj12]

just force urself to move up you may lose at first but u need to get accustomed to the bigger bets. Ive found mself thinking about stuff like "o man thats a big bet to call with 2nd pair i dont wanna risk it" when obviously your decision should be on pot odds, hand reading and proper strategy. Until you become comfortable with the blinds you will think of them as $5,10$ etc instead of 1bb.
Solution? just play conservative for a week or 2

[Decessus]

Dude, at least you are doing something at 0.5/1. My history is similar to yours, I started at pennies with 20 bucks and grew it up a lot, always using a good bankroll management.
But I've been stucked on NL50 for the last 4/5 months. Winning 1500-2300 USD per month on those playing 30-35 hours per week, I have bankroll to be playing higher than NL100, but EVERYTIME I tried NL100 I got kinda busted and went back to NL50.
Im down 3.35PTBB/100 after 27K hands at NL100. Pretty sad and I dont know what to do. I'll just keep building a larger and larger bankroll and I'll try it again soon.

[AlanBostick]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll tell you what, I'm in very much the same position you are. I play 1/2 right now, and have the roll so that I could jump into 5/10 properly bankrolled tomorrow if I wanted to. This summer, I took a shot at 2/4, got smoked, and took a long break, tried 2/4 again, got smoked, and I've moved back down again.

[/ QUOTE ]

DaveH hasn't gotten smoked when he tried higher limits than where he currently plays; he says that he won and got scared and moved back down.

Your own situation may be explainable by your facing better players at $2-$4 than you do at $1-$2. DaveH's issue is much more clearly an internal one.

[Subfallen]

i think you would be wise to reconsider if you really want to continue your time investment in poker...

i say this because even as low as 10/20, losing $1k in a hour is super-standard. if the notion of dropping $300 at 3/6 makes you queasy, i'm not sure that you're cut out for this game.

of course you know best if you will be able to conquer this risk-aversion; but grinding through a prolonged stint at microlimits only to find that 10/20+ are just too stressful for you to play...that would blow.

Wait for your balls to drop before you move up

[AlanBostick]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait for your balls to drop before you move up

[/ QUOTE ]

Goodness, it seems like it was only a short while ago since you wrote

[ QUOTE ]
Stop shtting up people's threads with your inane remarks ... don't post if you have nothing to contribute.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you forgotten your own advice already?

But my advice is sound. You have to have balls to survive in the bigger games, pushing smaller edges and forcing solid opponents into making mistakes with aggression.

[RydenStoompala]

Why do you want to move up?

Are you...
1) Trying to boost your hourly earn rate?
2) Playing mainly for fun but want better competition?
3) Sick of the game and think that changing limits will provide a new experience and get you back into it?
4) Just think you have to because "that's what people do!"

Everyone has different motives. The majority of players (thank goodness) who move into the middle limits do not know why they are motivated to do so.

Try small buy-in no limit for a while. Try other games like Omahama 8/b(especially PLO).

If you're supposed to be at a different limit, then you'll know it. Once you get there, adapt and commit. Play MORE agressively than you do now, not less. If you really don't want to move up, because you have no reason to do so, then stay put and prosper.

[AlanBostick]

That was actually advice? I'm sorry; I mistook it for a cheap shot from a jive-*ssed punk.

[celiboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you play poker? What are your goals? Starting with $100, over the past year I've built that to $400 slowly moved up from .05/.1 to .5/1 and 1/2. About four times I've ventured into 2/4. That does scare me since it's beyond my bankroll, but the level of play wasn't that much tougher than 1/2. (Maybe it goes up exponentially at some point.) In any event, my goal is to make a few hundred bucks a month to buy some extra toys and dinners out. I think I can do that when I move to 2/4 or maybe 3/6.

So, why do you want so badly to move up? And more to the point, why are you so afraid of losing money? You are clearly very careful about playing within your means, so going bankrupt probably isn't an issue. How old are you? Are you a college kid or (like me) a middle aged man with kids to support? I came from a low-income family, and even though I'm now comfortably middle-class, I stil have problems buying some little extras that I can logically afford. Somehow if I can buy them with poker money, it doesn't count as being a spendthrift. Identifying why you are afraid of losing a little money that you can probably afford might help with the fear. To overcome it, do what you've started doing, but make yourself committ to a low, but very certain number of hours a week at the next level, win or lose. I suspect you'll win, or at least not lose very much, and you'll become more comfortable.

Again - try to identify WHY you are afraid of losing the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

With bonus whoring, you can easily clear $400 a month and never go beyond .5/1. Bonuswhoring will make you much more money than actual winnings until you hit 3/6 or 5/10....

[Dave H.]

Thanx to everyone who took the time to respond. There were a lot of thoughtful replies and many of you gave me (and others, I'm sure) food for thought. Even the statement [ QUOTE ]
Wait for your balls to drop before you move up


[/ QUOTE ] was good to hear although not quite subtle enough IMHO.

Not to say that anyone's reply wasn't appreciated, but RydenStoompala asked some great questions:

[ QUOTE ]
Are you...
1) Trying to boost your hourly earn rate?
2) Playing mainly for fun but want better competition?
3) Sick of the game and think that changing limits will provide a new experience and get you back into it?
4) Just think you have to because "that's what people do!"


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that if I am going to be perfectly honest with myself, that #4 applies the most to me, i.e. "that's what people do" or "I'm supposed to do that" or some such thing. I was all set to just go with that. After all, I DO enjoy playing and can't say I've ever NOT enjoyed playing. And there's no question I'm making $; however, #1 (I want to boost my hourly rate) also applies and it's a very close second.

I've done some more experimenting over the past few days and moving up just a bit has been profitable SO FAR, so maybe posting and reading all of your advice/replies has been cathartic for me.

Assuming I have the fortitude/skill to try the higher levels, I'll repost...especially after my first 100 - 200BB downswing.

So thanx again for your criticism/witticism/encouragement (whichever applies). I believe that EACH and EVERY post was helpful!