2 questions

[PokerBob]

do you hate preflop? what's your flop play?

Canterbury 15/30 8 handed
There are 2 BB's posted in this hand cuz someone left. UTG folds, UTG+1 opens. This means very little. He is a fish (he's a dealer at canterbury) and his range is HUGE here. Folds to me on the CO with T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, I call. Super fishy button comes along. One blind folds, one calls. The one who calls plays pretty well and is very honest.

Flop 4 ways (9SB): 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Blind bets, UTG+1 raises, I..........

[hobbsmann]

Preflop is probably too loose, but T9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif is just so pretty. As for the flop this looks like a super easy 3-bet given all of your equity in this pot. Plus you might get a free card on the turn.

[goofball]

I don't hate preflop but I do think it's a mistake. Even if his opening range is huge you're likely behind it. Depending on waht kind of fish he is 3betting might be better, but I don't like coldcalling much at all. The flop play is an easy 3bet. They both like their hands and aren't going anywhere, just jam it.

I think that your description of this player being a 'fish' really doens't give proper anaylisis to his/her play. Even players that can be labeled 'fish' have different tendancies. With about 15 outs you will improve your hand a lil over 50% of the time. Depending on how the players play I want to extract my money out of the turn. If three betting here on the flop means that they will always check to me on the turn I won't three bet it on the flop. The reason being you are drawing to a baby flush either player can easily be betting a bigger flush draw. A bad scenario (depending on how they play) is for you to three bet, have them both smooth call and then when the turn hits just check in front of you forcing you to bet and get check raised. Then your going to be confused as to where your at in the hand and be giving up money in the long run. But this depends on how they play, I will more often then not smooth call the flop, if a straight card hits I'll raise the turn, and if a diamond comes depending on the action ahead of me i'll smooth call or raise. (Remember try to extract the money out of a hand on the turn if possible) -Andrew

[bakku]

what everyone said pf. and omg this is like the easiest flop 3-bet evaaaaar!

Yea if you just decide to be reckless and not try to maximize value. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif The point is here that you have a lot of ways to improve but if you just keep raising the flop you may mis valuable bets on the turn as well as, I think the better play here (depending on how they play) I'll raise the turn even if it's a blank and it looks like no one was helped by the card such as a nine /images/graemlins/wink.gif. And in this way if Axxx of diamonds is in the pot I have a chance if we both miss our diamonds on the river to make a bad queen fold or a middle pp such as tens or jacks or ace king. One of the other benefits of this play is if I do get called down taking control of the hand on the turn with a raise and get called on the river bluffing, the action I will recieve from these players from here on out on the turn will be ridiculous (usually), next time i'll make a similar turn raise play with the nut straight or whatever and I will pick up a lot more bets when they are drawing dead than i should. Obviously depending on how these people play. I think the turn is the way to go, unless these people keep betting no matter what with wahtever hands they have or are trying represent, and even then the better play might be to just wait till u hit a card and raise if they play that bad. -Andrew

[DeeJ]

pf is fine. 3-bet for value for an excellent draw and to try to push out gutshots or weak pairs eg 66 or lower. You won't push out flush draws and you probably won't succeed in pushing out gutshots, but it depends on the players.

I think you guys are still missing the point you don't just three bet cause you have a great draw you still must find the way to maximize vaule from the draw. /images/graemlins/mad.gif And also how to be able to get away from this hand if there is a bigger hand out there. The hand I worry about is bigger diamonds which rapes me on the turn if i three bet it on the flop and the turn is a diamond and they check to me and i get check raised. The problem there is what do i do if the big blind check raises the turn when the K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif comes out? Re raise and put him on king queen so he can cap it with Ax /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or instead just smooth call and let his Ace /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and Queen of /images/graemlins/club.gif get there? Or throw the hand away thinking i'm beat? Do you guys start to see the problem. Remember just because you had hand that will improve about 50% or more of teh time doesn't mean its an instant winner. Instead the best thing to do is just call two bets, and besides with the big blind betting, and the UTG+1 player raising I want to let them have control and have the action naturally go back to the big blind to see if HE three bets. He may have a hand as good as Ace of diamond, Eight of Diamonds here..... Just raising the flop cause you have a 'good draw' is a nooblet move and you won't make as much money as you could in the long run.... ::sigh:: /images/graemlins/frown.gif....-Andrew

The problem with everyone elses anaylisis thus far is that no one really is making warrants to their claims. Like goofball saying he 'doesn't like cold calling much at all' if your going to propose a different way of playing the hand providing some reasonable idea of why you make that play would help please.... (Free speech is overrated) /images/graemlins/mad.gif... -ANdrew

[hobbsmann]

dude, you suck. Seriously do what expected value is? 3-betting this flop with a huge draw IS the most profitable play and it is not even close.

Okay if that is true prove it by mapping out how that is true and refuting what I said about the other hands taht might be involved. Just throwing around stuff like EV without explaining it useless. Besides it doesn't matter three betting isn't a bad play by any means but I'm just contending that you leave yoruself open on the turn in certain cases. I don't think you'll be able to refute that. Provide me reason why your anaylisis and anyone else that says raising the flop is the right play and I won't nessicarily disagree. I think the one things that are pretty irrefutable here is that the call preflop is questionable (not terribel just not a great call in the long run) and that there should be a raise put in here at some point durring the hand. And the I suck comment was so inspired, intelligent and witty it was amazing I hope you keep enlightening the poker world with your vast knowledge of insults. -Andrew

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
Yea if you just decide to be reckless and not try to maximize value. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif The point is here that you have a lot of ways to improve but if you just keep raising the flop you may mis valuable bets on the turn as well as, I think the better play here (depending on how they play) I'll raise the turn even if it's a blank and it looks like no one was helped by the card such as a nine /images/graemlins/wink.gif. And in this way if Axxx of diamonds is in the pot I have a chance if we both miss our diamonds on the river to make a bad queen fold or a middle pp such as tens or jacks or ace king. One of the other benefits of this play is if I do get called down taking control of the hand on the turn with a raise and get called on the river bluffing, the action I will recieve from these players from here on out on the turn will be ridiculous (usually), next time i'll make a similar turn raise play with the nut straight or whatever and I will pick up a lot more bets when they are drawing dead than i should. Obviously depending on how these people play. I think the turn is the way to go, unless these people keep betting no matter what with wahtever hands they have or are trying represent, and even then the better play might be to just wait till u hit a card and raise if they play that bad. -Andrew

[/ QUOTE ]

all i read was the first sentence. which is wrong.

[Entity]

ALL-IN.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
The hand I worry about is bigger diamonds which rapes me on the turn if i three bet it on the flop and the turn is a diamond and they check to me and i get check raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

A) Who said you have to bet the turn?

B) You've got a 12 outer against higher diamonds subject to a 9ish out redraw, so it's basically impossible to really be in tough [censored] here. You'd have to be up against a higher flush draw and an overpair/top pair for you to really be in a tough place, and the chances of that happening are slim enough in a 3-way pot that over the long run, you will be gaining a huge overlay on any additional flop estimate. This is NOT a hand to be looking to get away from at any point in time.

Pump. It. Up.

Rob

[tpir90036]

I think pre-flop stinks unless you have reason to think everyone behind you is coming along.

Flop seems like a 3-bet to me. I doubt you have any chance of winning without showing down the best hand but you have tons of equity and might be able to take a "free" one on the turn. I would much rather go that route than having to pay 2 (or more) BBs on the turn if the blind and the PFR get into a skirimish.

[Dazarath]

Muse, in the situation where you miss the turn, it'd be ideal to pump the flop and have it get checked to you on the turn. You'd be getting money in with an awesome draw while your equity is high, and you'd put in 0 bets on the turn when your equity has decreased. As for worrying about a higher flush, it happens. But you can't play poker always worrying when you don't have the nuts. If you have KQss on a 2-spade board, are you going to check/call when you hit your flush, just because someone might have a higher flush?

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
The hand I worry about is bigger diamonds which rapes me on the turn if i three bet it on the flop and the turn is a diamond and they check to me and i get check raised.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you think of a worse case scenario for why you don't want to 3-bet? Here, I'll add a fun scenario. The turn is a black 6 and you get checkraised.

[newhizzle]

i dont hate preflop, i dont love it either

flop is a very easy raise

[newhizzle]

muse - do you realize that we are a mathematical favorite to hit a hand that is very likely to be a winner by the river?

[Victor]

i often wonder why my opponents do stupid things. i can never figure it out. usually i just put a not like, raises turn with oesfd 3way i a large pot and leave it at that. this is accurate of course, but i always like to know what my opponent is thinking bc it allows me to read his hands in similar and not so similar situations later.

thank you for this glimpse into why certain players raise the turn with little chance of picking up the pot after their equity has greatly decreased.

and, just to make sure i have you guys pegged correctly, do you often bet/3bet the turn into a pf raiser when you pick up a draw on the turn?

[stillbr]

3-betting preflop will give you a better chance to win the hand & given the range of the opener and the dead money in the pot I think this is a better Idea than coldcalling.

Will the SB fold any queen when you 3-bet? At first I thought calling would be better with the superfish behind you as you want lots of multiway action with your big draw, but 3-betting the flop may help you win if you spike a 9 or T. I dunno..its probably close on which one is better on the flop. However I think preflop it is much better to 3bet.

[stillbr]

[ QUOTE ]
3-betting preflop will give you a better chance to win the hand & given the range of the opener and the dead money in the pot I think this is a better Idea than coldcalling.

Will the SB fold any queen when you 3-bet? At first I thought calling would be better with the superfish behind you as you want lots of multiway action with your big draw, but 3-betting the flop may help you win if you spike a 9 or T. I dunno..its probably close on which one is better on the flop. However I think preflop it is much better to 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

After reading some of the responses I agree 3betting is better on the flop aswell. Your supposed to knockout 3rd and 4th best hands in a big pot right? The chance to knockout a gutshot or other hand is important here. This is probably why I'm on a downswing. I dont think good enough.

I would just like to make the point that anybody who thinks the only play is to three bet the flop have all made the assumption that they must hit either the flush or straight to win. Once you three bet the turn you can only make it two more BBs the rest of the way if a bad queen or PP wants to call you down. A smooth call on the flop and a raise on the turn gives you a much better shot and taking down the pot without improving. The preflop raiser could very easily have missed with AK and be raising for a free card himself, which of course you do not let him have and if the blind is a good player as Bob suggests then he will let a bad to mediocre queen go on the turn if it is two bets back to him.

I think Muse is all over this one to gain the most value and provide you with more than one way to win the pot.

wally

P.S. I know this game at Canterbury and the turn raise has worked for me on countless occasions to win pots from people who are making plays themselves, whether or not I have anything.

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with everyone elses anaylisis thus far is that no one really is making warrants to their claims. Like goofball saying he 'doesn't like cold calling much at all' if your going to propose a different way of playing the hand providing some reasonable idea of why you make that play would help please.... (Free speech is overrated) /images/graemlins/mad.gif... -ANdrew

[/ QUOTE ]

Coldcalling isn't good because we don't have an equity edge, we're behind Q2o here, and we're going to have to just fold a lot of flops. If we coldcall it will be difficult to play the hand profitably, folding is better than coldcalling and against a competent player I would fold. Against the wrong kind of fish I would fold as well.

3betting against a specific player is good. It gives us position AND momentum, likely drives everyone else out of the pot, and frequently puts our opponent in a tough spot, out of position with a marginal hand and no momentum. 3betting allows us to win unimproved a lot, and that makes the difference for thsi hand.

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG I guess this is the reason that I continue to play poker and play sucessfully. Jesus christ guys just getting back from work today and reading all of these replys posts hurts my head. I think there are a few important things to remember about my anaylisis of the situation. First I don't disagree with anyone completely that said that three betting is a good play here, in fact in many situations and against many opponents the three bet is going to be the better play as pointed out by many people in this post. (Whether they pointed out any reasoning what soever or not) The thing that upsets me and makes me giggle is the fact taht very few of you see any value to the alternate play i have suggested. Like I mentioned in one of my preveious posts, the difference for me as a poker player is who I am up agaisnt. As I have said if your only anaylisis of your opponents is "SUper fish" then it doesn't matter if you three bet, smooth call, or throw the hand away it is my belief you will lose in the long run. The difference for me is if i put the preflop raiser on AK and I know his tendance is to muck on the turn into a raise if he doesn't improve, I'll take control of the hand on the turn. I will also wait till the turn if my table image represents a solid player that will even slow down the worst of donkeys (which sometimes it will and sometimes it won't) I play in games in Seattle ranging from 8-16 to 30-60 and most even ultra aggro players preflop and on the flop slow down to check call on the turn and river, unless they have a hand or are value betting. I love the cold call play if I am up against donkeys that love to value bet the turn with ace high, middle pair, pocket tens with this board, even a bigger flush draw etc. I agree that if you have decided that your opponents are bad enough that you will have to show the winner then sure three bet the hell out of it. It just amazes me how no one even really gives any credibility to any play except three betting. I think the ability of any good poker player is the ability to be able to 'change gears' be able to alter his or her play based on the ability, tendancy, and knowing his or her opponents.

Now for the line by line....

Newhizzle, yes i know what a mathematical favorite we are to hit this hand and win the hand (under the assumption that our draws are good.) I am just proposing a different way of playing the hand where dependign on who I am up against I'll be able to make nut diamonds fold the river if they miss, ace king, ace queen, pocket tens, maybe jacks, etc a field of hands. Where I play if a hand like jacks commits to a big pot on the flop he/she will check call out, yet if i make two bets on the turn increasingly likely I can force that hand to fold as well as a rag hand like Q 2 spades or whatever....

Shant, Yea i can think of much worse scenarios but it doesn't matter. IT is a real scenario taht if you don't realize is out there you will pay off every time. Of course if the black six hits and you get check raised then you should three bet the flop every time. I can't think of a game taht soft where your going to get check raised very often in that situation.... but if your opponents are truely that bad and reckless then yes forget anything that resembles fancey and just play them straight up like it seems i would have to do against most of you.

Dazarath I agree that what you said makes sence and is sensible. I think here is where it comes down to really making sure you know your opponents and how they will interact with you and how you bet. If the preflop raises is ultra aggro and will value bet the turn 2/3's of the time with most of the hands he'll raise with and say it gets capped on the flop then I don't know if i like your three bet on the flop. I like if i hit my hand that has a lot of draws retaining the abilty to pop the turn. I love people who value bet the flop and the turn even, if they do this they will continue to lose money to me over time because of this play. As far as worrying about the higher flush in your King Queen of spade situation of course you have to worry about it. You can still assume your hand is good but i don't think it'd be wise to raise all the way out in that situation if there isn't a board pair and is no four flush? I think that's foolish unless you know your opponents. I think the things that we need to remember in poker is I believe all anaylisis is subjective to the players we are up against and how they play.

Entity,
A, your right no one said you have to bet the turn, but then again I'm assuming that if you hit any of your outs espically a diamond here you will be betting the turn not check calling the rest of the hand. If you automatically assume your diamonds are not good you should throw away on the flop obviously. So it is easily assumed that with the turn being a diamond and they check to you that you will bet and open yourself to check raise from a hand with bigger diamonds.
b) I agree we are the favorite subject to a cruel act of the card gods, but it doesnt' matter two things that need to be addressed is alternate ways of maximizing a hand, and then making sure our play best suits the way to maximize value based opun our opposition.

Lastly Victor,
The fact that you think it's stupid means it worked, I vary my play enough that i will only maybe one out of 5 times bet a dry turn with a big draw (12 outs +) I do this because usually i get the table image of being a rock and can use this to value bet, steal and use some misdirection to outwit my opponents and pick up extra bets. The fact that you have no idea why i'm doing this is reason enough. I mean against a player like you that is so one dimentional and can not understand advanced play and against a lot of negative players, making it two bets back to them can even sometimes make them fold aces. Depending on who your playing against. I love the part why raise with little chance of picking up the pot. This is just a dumb statement, I will not make this play if I belive there is little way I will pick up the pot, the only way there is little way I will pick up the pot is if I have misread my opponents or the strength of their hand. If that is true then yes i am the pidgeon in this hand. WHich i am assuming is not going to be the case. And to answer your last question like anything it just depends on teh situation and how the other person plays. But no obviously I am not one of those players that just blatently rasies anytime i pick up any draw on the turn. I am a very calculated player. K my head hurts now good bye for now. I hope at least a few of you terrible players have learned a thing or two and if not come to Seattle. There is a 100-200 seat for you waiting right next to me. I'll even let you chose left or right side of me. -ANdrew

Ahh at last beautiful silence /images/graemlins/tongue.gif. -Andrew

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope at least a few of you terrible players have learned a thing or two and if not come to Seattle. There is a 100-200 seat for you waiting right next to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you play? I'm in Greenlake and unless you're playing at some private ex-microsoftie games, I'm not sure where you'd be inviting me to play $100/200.

Rob

[golferbrent]

Is Canterbury a bet and 3 raises? If that is the case here I would 3 bet the flop. The preflop play is fine... possibly a 3 bet on some occasions... sometimes a fold. You probably are not losing a whole lot here either way.

[golferbrent]

I have 2 explicit reasons to 3 bet the flop. Number one is that with the equity we have in the pot... ie. approx. 45% or so if our diamonds are good, it makes sense to get the money in now. When the turn comes and we don't make our hand we lose a great deal of equity in the pot.

The number 2 reason to 3 bet the flop is that we may fold out the BB and the button, which leaves us against a player who may not have a hand at all. Which means we may add outs to our hand.

I think these two reasons combined are reason enough to 3 bet the flop. An additional reason to 3 bet is that if we get the pot heads up... with the original raiser we could win the hand unimproved. The pot has 6 BB in it already and at this point I want to do everything possible to give myself a chance to win the pot.

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
do you hate preflop? what's your flop play?

Canterbury 15/30 8 handed
There are 2 BB's posted in this hand cuz someone left. UTG folds, UTG+1 opens. This means very little. He is a fish (he's a dealer at canterbury) and his range is HUGE here. Folds to me on the CO with T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, I call. Super fishy button comes along. One blind folds, one calls. The one who calls plays pretty well and is very honest.

Flop 4 ways (9SB): 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Blind bets, UTG+1 raises, I..........

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop is OK IMO, if you have a strong read that the Button is calling too. But, even then, it is probably marginal.

On the flop, I would just call for two reasons mentionednin OP's reads.

1. "The one who calls [Blind/flop-bettor] plays pretty well and is very honest." You are likely not improving your chances to win by spiking a T or 9, since I doubt the Blind is folding his Q.

2."Super fishy button". Since the button is "super fishy", he will likely cold-call in this pot that is getting big and exciting (just the kind super fishy players like). So, by calling, you get 8 SBs in this round at the cost of 2 to you (+2.4sb in EV, assuming 55% equity). But, by 3-betting you are likely getting 9SBs in this round at the cost of 3 to you (+1.95sb in EV). Now, if Button will call 3-cold, then it is a different story.

Also, by jamming now, you hurt your implied odds if you check when you miss the turn, which will likey be the right play since there will probably be 3 players in a big pot (i.e. you will have no bluffing equity).

[adios]

You've made interesting posts in this thread IMO. I'll mull them over and I appreciate the time and effort you've spent in responding. Welcome to the forums.

[mterry]

Muse, what % equity do you estimate you have on the turn if neither draw hits? Do you agree this should determine whether or not the money you put in is earning/losing money? +/- EV

I once told a guy to lead his flush draw on the flop when it was 5 handed in a lp game, and he argued me for 15 minutes why that was a bad way to play. Eventually, I just gave up. This argument reminds me of that.

[MitchL]

[ QUOTE ]
Is Canterbury a bet and 3 raises? If that is the case here I would 3 bet the flop. The preflop play is fine... possibly a 3 bet on some occasions... sometimes a fold. You probably are not losing a whole lot here either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

No its a 5-bet cap. Not sure it matters though, I like pounding this one, because action will slow when any draw hits. I doubt he is getting 4-bet, but it is certainly not the end of the world if he does. Dont particularly like the preflop call, but I understand how difficult this hand is to release against a bad player. I usually make 1 loose coldcall a session. As long as this doesnt become a standard coldcall I see no real problem w/ it.

Well Tulalip isn't spreading their 100-200, 200-400 nearly as much any more Bill Hagen has stopped playing there nearly as much. He'll stop by parkers and just BS I haven't heard where he's been playing my assumption is down at Muckleshoot, I've been taking trips up to Cananda at The Rock they have some great action up there. Anyways though yea when they have it you can find me there.... -Andrew

Entity if your intrested email me and we can exchange numbers I'll give you a call next time there is a good game if your serious. The 100-200, 200-400 they had up their this last summer treated me very well. A pretty good ring game, one of the best features was Tulalip was only raking a dollar a hand so all the big action players came up from muckleshoot. Anyways yea mail me if your serious. -ANdrew

Entity where do you play at? -Andrew

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Entity where do you play at? -Andrew

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play live very often, so most of my live play is in Vegas (I've got a rep as basically never playing live). I've played at Tulalip recently and it was nice, but nothing special. I've just never heard of 100/200 being spread anywhere in the state -- Tulalip generally spreads 20/40 but has apparently been spreading a 40 full kill recently that seemed really good while I was there last time.

Rob

yea they only spread 20-40 on friday and saturday night they have their stupid 'no limit' which has killed all the limit action in the area higher than 8-16.... Tulalip had the bigger games this summer but now a few of the millioniares are working and with family vacationing. So the game really doesn't spread but it was an amazing game even though it was usually 6 handed. -ANdrew

[oxymoron]

I liked Tualalip because of the non-smoking poker room. I am curious to go play some of the smaller games in the smaller card rooms around here now that they are forced to be non-smoking.

PM me if you know of a good local place to play decent NL tournies. The small rooms have a riduculous blind structure.

[poker1O1]

[ QUOTE ]
what everyone said pf. and omg this is like the easiest flop 3-bet evaaaaar!

[/ QUOTE ]

[Victor]

oh man i forgot about this post. thanks for responding i needed some humor.

[ QUOTE ]
Lastly Victor,
The fact that you think it's stupid means it worked,


[/ QUOTE ]

now this is expert analysis. bc i am so bad that the opposite of all my plays works.

[ QUOTE ]
I vary my play enough that i will only maybe one out of 5 times bet a dry turn with a big draw (12 outs +) I do this because usually i get the table image of being a rock and can use this to value bet, steal and use some misdirection to outwit my opponents and pick up extra bets

[/ QUOTE ]

ok this only works against opponents that fold. no one folds at canterbury or party or bellagio or mirage or cleveland.

[ QUOTE ]
I mean against a player like you that is so one dimentional

[/ QUOTE ]

there is really no reason to be anything other than one dimensional if your opponents are one dimensional. my dimension is that i take the most profitable line. with some history between an opponent mixing it up is certainly useful tho this is not the case here.

[ QUOTE ]
and can not understand advanced play and against a lot of negative players, making it two bets back to them can even sometimes make them fold aces

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, nobody is folding aces on this board in a 15/30 game.

[ QUOTE ]
I love the part why raise with little chance of picking up the pot. This is just a dumb statement, I will not make this play if I belive there is little way I will pick up the pot, the only way there is little way I will pick up the pot is if I have misread my opponents or the strength of their hand. If that is true then yes i am the pidgeon in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, a straightforward player bet out on the flop into many opponents. that generally means i have pair or better. another player raised next, which generally means i have a hand i want to protect, i.e. a pair or better.

do you really think you are gonna move both players in some dinky canterbury 15/30 game off a pair (or better) on the turn? i would love to hear you answer this.

Where do you live? SOme great places with decent tournaments monthly would be, Crazy moose is having a good touranment 30 min blind structure 225 dollar buy in (I think I know it's aroudn 200) january 11th, parkers always has one a month that ist 10K plus, Jr's silver dollar in everett has a great one every sunday it's cheap umm lets see there are plenty. Diamond lils had the annual washington state poker open up to an 80K prize pool. Pendelton will have their round up in a month or two... etc etc -Andrew

Well assuming that your anaylisis is correct that there isn't one player at canterbury that respects a raise on the turn enough to fold an over pair at least some of the time, or fold a decent hand, then you absolutely right(i believe party poker players won't.) Yea if you are lucky enough and these players always play straight forward and are always that predictable and always let you be that predictable then 3 bet it. My anayisis assuemd you might be playing at the average game i'm used to playing at.