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Chris Alger
12-08-2005, 05:39 AM
The following paragraphs were excerpted from Harold Pinter’s Nobel Prize acceptance speech. (http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/2005/pinter-lecture-e.html )

The essence of his charge is that the United States is sociopathic but propaganda-induced hypnosis precludes Americans from confronting the obvious. I'd add a more specific defect. American discourse has degenerated to the point where war sympathies cannot be expressed without either relying on blatant dishonesty or substituting subjective, empty labels (liberation, terrorism, democracy, etc.) for argument. War supporters don't have the tools to even describe what they support. Maybe I should except the Islam exterminationists, but so far these animals are beyond the pale even for Bush.

I’m posting it here because you won’t see it discussed in the MSM, other than the usual tacit agreement-cum-sneering.

My question is: why should we tolerate anyone who supports U.S. war and torture who cannot refute pretty much everything Pinter has to say? (The part in bold is a good summary of the way everyone should view the war).
_____________________
As every single person here knows, the justification for the invasion of Iraq was that Saddam Hussein possessed a highly dangerous body of weapons of mass destruction, some of which could be fired in 45 minutes, bringing about appalling devastation. We were assured that was true. It was not true. We were told that Iraq had a relationship with Al Quaeda and shared responsibility for the atrocity in New York of September 11th 2001. We were assured that this was true. It was not true. We were told that Iraq threatened the security of the world. We were assured it was true. It was not true.

The truth is something entirely different. The truth is to do with how the United States understands its role in the world and how it chooses to embody it.

But before I come back to the present I would like to look at the recent past, by which I mean United States foreign policy since the end of the Second World War. I believe it is obligatory upon us to subject this period to at least some kind of even limited scrutiny, which is all that time will allow here.

. . .
The United States supported and in many cases engendered every right wing military dictatorship in the world after the end of the Second World War. I refer to Indonesia, Greece, Uruguay, Brazil, Paraguay, Haiti, Turkey, the Philippines, Guatemala, El Salvador, and, of course, Chile. The horror the United States inflicted upon Chile in 1973 can never be purged and can never be forgiven.
Hundreds of thousands of deaths took place throughout these countries. Did they take place? And are they in all cases attributable to US foreign policy? The answer is yes they did take place and they are attributable to American foreign policy. But you wouldn't know it.

It never happened. Nothing ever happened. Even while it was happening it wasn't happening. It didn't matter. It was of no interest. The crimes of the United States have been systematic, constant, vicious, remorseless, but very few people have actually talked about them. You have to hand it to America. It has exercised a quite clinical manipulation of power worldwide while masquerading as a force for universal good. It's a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis.

I put to you that the United States is without doubt the greatest show on the road. Brutal, indifferent, scornful and ruthless it may be but it is also very clever. As a salesman it is out on its own and its most saleable commodity is self love. It's a winner. Listen to all American presidents on television say the words, 'the American people', as in the sentence, 'I say to the American people it is time to pray and to defend the rights of the American people and I ask the American people to trust their president in the action he is about to take on behalf of the American people.'

It's a scintillating stratagem. Language is actually employed to keep thought at bay. The words 'the American people' provide a truly voluptuous cushion of reassurance. You don't need to think. Just lie back on the cushion. The cushion may be suffocating your intelligence and your critical faculties but it's very comfortable. This does not apply of course to the 40 million people living below the poverty line and the 2 million men and women imprisoned in the vast gulag of prisons, which extends across the US.
The United States no longer bothers about low intensity conflict. It no longer sees any point in being reticent or even devious. It puts its cards on the table without fear or favour. It quite simply doesn't give a damn about the United Nations, international law or critical dissent, which it regards as impotent and irrelevant. It also has its own bleating little lamb tagging behind it on a lead, the pathetic and supine Great Britain.

What has happened to our moral sensibility? Did we ever have any? What do these words mean? Do they refer to a term very rarely employed these days – conscience? A conscience to do not only with our own acts but to do with our shared responsibility in the acts of others? Is all this dead? Look at Guantanamo Bay. Hundreds of people detained without charge for over three years, with no legal representation or due process, technically detained forever. This totally illegitimate structure is maintained in defiance of the Geneva Convention. It is not only tolerated but hardly thought about by what's called the 'international community'. This criminal outrage is being committed by a country, which declares itself to be 'the leader of the free world'. Do we think about the inhabitants of Guantanamo Bay? What does the media say about them? They pop up occasionally – a small item on page six. They have been consigned to a no man's land from which indeed they may never return. At present many are on hunger strike, being force-fed, including British residents. No niceties in these force-feeding procedures. No sedative or anaesthetic. Just a tube stuck up your nose and into your throat. You vomit blood. This is torture. What has the British Foreign Secretary said about this? Nothing. What has the British Prime Minister said about this? Nothing. Why not? Because the United States has said: to criticise our conduct in Guantanamo Bay constitutes an unfriendly act. You're either with us or against us. So Blair shuts up.

The invasion of Iraq was a bandit act, an act of blatant state terrorism, demonstrating absolute contempt for the concept of international law. The invasion was an arbitrary military action inspired by a series of lies upon lies and gross manipulation of the media and therefore of the public; an act intended to consolidate American military and economic control of the Middle East masquerading – as a last resort – all other justifications having failed to justify themselves – as liberation. A formidable assertion of military force responsible for the death and mutilation of thousands and thousands of innocent people.

We have brought torture, cluster bombs, depleted uranium, innumerable acts of random murder, misery, degradation and death to the Iraqi people and call it 'bringing freedom and democracy to the Middle East'.

How many people do you have to kill before you qualify to be described as a mass murderer and a war criminal? One hundred thousand? More than enough, I would have thought. Therefore it is just that Bush and Blair be arraigned before the International Criminal Court of Justice. But Bush has been clever. He has not ratified the International Criminal Court of Justice. Therefore if any American soldier or for that matter politician finds himself in the dock Bush has warned that he will send in the marines. But Tony Blair has ratified the Court and is therefore available for prosecution. We can let the Court have his address if they're interested. It is Number 10, Downing Street, London.

Death in this context is irrelevant. Both Bush and Blair place death well away on the back burner. At least 100,000 Iraqis were killed by American bombs and missiles before the Iraq insurgency began. These people are of no moment. Their deaths don't exist. They are blank. They are not even recorded as being dead.
. . .
Many thousands, if not millions, of people in the United States itself are demonstrably sickened, shamed and angered by their government's actions, but as things stand they are not a coherent political force – yet. But the anxiety, uncertainty and fear which we can see growing daily in the United States is unlikely to diminish.
. . .
I believe that despite the enormous odds which exist, unflinching, unswerving, fierce intellectual determination, as citizens, to define the real truth of our lives and our societies is a crucial obligation which devolves upon us all. It is in fact mandatory.

If such a determination is not embodied in our political vision we have no hope of restoring what is so nearly lost to us – the dignity of man.

evil_twin
12-08-2005, 11:24 AM
I saw this in full on UK television last night. He has brilliantly articulated what so many of us are thinking. How people continue to delude themselves this is a war on terror or a battle for Iraqi freedom is totally beyond my capacity to understand.

I particularly liked how he points out the US has most certainly not been a force for "good" since the second world war, and the sheer hypocrisy of the battle for freedom blurb in contrast with the US's recent military history. I have nothing further to add as Pinter said everything so much better than I could ever hope to.

adios
12-08-2005, 12:52 PM
A couple of things I found amusing about this lecture:

[ QUOTE ]
The invasion of Iraq was a bandit act, an act of blatant state terrorism, demonstrating absolute contempt for the concept of international law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Saddam Hussein: his rise to power (http://www.kurdmedia.com/reports.asp?id=796)

Some years ago a European interviewer nervously quoted reports that the Baghdad authorities might, on occasions, have tortured and perhaps even killed opponents of the regime. Was this true? Saddam was not offended. Rather, he seemed surprised by the naivete of the question. "Of course," he replied. "What do you expect if they oppose the regime?"


The Personal History of Saddam Hussein (http://www.emergency.com/hussein1.htm)


According to reports by Hanna Batatu (a government reporter), Hussein rose quickly through the ranks, due to his extreme efficiency as a torturer.


And the leftists condemn the U.S. for removing this despot who repeatedly violated international law, strong armed his way to power illegitimately, and was responsible for god knows how many murders. His strong suit was torture. Too funny.

[ QUOTE ]
The United States supported and in many cases engendered every right wing military dictatorship in the world after the end of the Second World War. I refer to Indonesia, Greece, Uruguay, Brazil, Paraguay, Haiti, Turkey, the Philippines, Guatemala, El Salvador, and, of course, Chile.

[/ QUOTE ]

No left wing murderous dictators? Puhleeze.

[ QUOTE ]
How many people do you have to kill before you qualify to be described as a mass murderer and a war criminal? One hundred thousand? More than enough, I would have thought. Therefore it is just that Bush and Blair be arraigned before the International Criminal Court of Justice.

[/ QUOTE ]

And these people support the Saddam Hussein regime and basically hold these folks up as shining examples of freedom fighters:

Iraq Bomber Strikes on Bus; Up to 30 Dead (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051208/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_051207082238;_ylt=Ag.9PSfmq01jnm_q0G75ZS9X6GM A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)

Iraq Insurgents Claim to Kill U.S. Hostage (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051208/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_051208154027;_ylt=AjZX.uSO2dXx9ZYM8pVzTDJX6GM A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)

superleeds
12-08-2005, 01:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
And the leftists condemn the U.S. for removing this despot who repeatedly violated international law, strong armed his way to power illegitimately, and was responsible for god knows how many murders. His strong suit was torture. Too funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

No they don't.

Their's an old gag Billy Connelly used to tell about the Old Firm Football game, (Glasgow Rangers v Glasgow Celtic Soccer game for you Yanks), it's a long joke but the punchline is 'Football violence will always prevalent in this game as long as they are shitting in our shoes and we are pissing in their bovril'

BillUCF
12-08-2005, 02:55 PM
It is obvious in recent years the quality of non-science Nobel recipients has greatly declined. It is time identify those persons who are against freedom and democracy and those who support fascism. There is no sitting on the fence here. People who refuse to confront fascist governments like Saddam's are just as guilty as those who support fascist ideas.

12-08-2005, 03:02 PM
Of course the US subjegates other nations. How do you think we got this rich?

It is amazing that the people who benefit from these savage acts are completely oblivious to them. Like our military goes around doing nice things for people.

That is exactly why US citizens bought the line that we are in Iraq to help the Iraqis. HA yeah right. Listen to adios whine about how the war is somehow helping Iraqis: "And the leftists condemn the U.S. for removing this despot who repeatedly violated international law, strong armed his way to power illegitimately, and was responsible for god knows how many murders. His strong suit was torture. Too funny."

Oh yes, that is why we overthrew him, because hes was a bad guy. Try looking up our involvement in Timor, East.

12-08-2005, 03:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It is obvious in recent years the quality of non-science Nobel recipients has greatly declined. It is time identify those persons who are against freedom and democracy and those who support fascism. There is no sitting on the fence here. People who refuse to confront fascist governments like Saddam's are just as guilty as those who support fascist ideas.

[/ QUOTE ]

LoL! Dont attack the information, attack the source!

He doesnt agree with me, label him a facist commie pinko [censored]!

BillUCF
12-08-2005, 03:15 PM
The definition of subjugate is "to bring under control; conquer". Look at the history of countries we have subjugated. Germany, Italy, Japan. They are thriving democracies that are now respectable nations in the world. Remember, freedom is not given, it must be earned by killing the fascists, communists, and other evils. Something the soft belly libs will never understand.

BillUCF
12-08-2005, 03:31 PM
I wasn't gunning for u, just the Nobel committee.

bobman0330
12-08-2005, 03:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
American discourse has degenerated to the point where war sympathies cannot be expressed without either relying on blatant dishonesty or substituting subjective, empty labels (liberation, terrorism, democracy, etc.) for argument. War supporters don't have the tools to even describe what they support. Maybe I should except the Islam exterminationists, but so far these animals are beyond the pale even for Bush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, what the [censored] are you talking about? Those words mean very specific things. Just because they're really important and carry huge weight with pretty much everyone doesn't mean they're "subjective" or "empty." Also, you may note that your boy Pinter does the same ("blatant act of state terrorism," "war criminal," numerous references to vague "international law").

[ QUOTE ]

My question is: why should we tolerate anyone who supports U.S. war and torture who cannot refute pretty much everything Pinter has to say? (The part in bold is a good summary of the way everyone should view the war).

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause he's a moron? What's there to refute? US clients got out of hand in Chile and El Salvador - true. Bad things are happening in Iraq - true. People are being held in Guantanamo indefinitely - true. Proponents of the war don't deny these things, they just see a greater good behind them.

12-08-2005, 03:32 PM
After a brief skim, do I really to refute statements like this?

[ QUOTE ]
At least 100,000 Iraqis were killed by American bombs and missiles before the Iraq insurgency began.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
2 million men and women imprisoned in the vast gulag of prisons, which extends across the US.


[/ QUOTE ]

12-08-2005, 03:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Like our military goes around doing nice things for people.

[/ QUOTE ]


Try reading the news before you post stupid crap like this. Check for "Pakistan earthquake" "Hurricane Katrina" or less recently "Indonesia tsunami."

12-08-2005, 03:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Like our military goes around doing nice things for people.

[/ QUOTE ]


Try reading the news before you post stupid crap like this. Check for "Pakistan earthquake" "Hurricane Katrina" or less recently "Indonesia tsunami."

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean I should read the propaganda? Edit: /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
What do you think our special forces are doing in Columbia?

12-08-2005, 04:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What do you think our special forces are doing in Columbia?


[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose nations like Columbia would be paradises in the absence of any US intervention?

andyfox
12-08-2005, 05:29 PM
Pinter's point (agree with it or not) was that the U.S. has all too often supported fascist governments. And that it really didn't care about what kind of government Saddam had.

Also, and again say what you want about Pinter's viewpoint, he certainly wasn't sitting on the fence.

Chris Alger
12-08-2005, 10:18 PM
I understand your argument to be this: If a country is led by a sadistic leader, then that country is fair game for conquest by the U.S. and it is ridiculous to argue that any such effort could be illegal or constitute "state terrorism." Why? Because unlike every other aggressor the appeals to noble motives -- as they all do -- statements by U.S. leaders must be greated with ironclad acceptance.

It gets worse when you consider the role the U.S. had in bringing Saddam to power and keeping him there when the worst of his atrocities were public knowledge. So now we have the following argument from you (please correct me if I'm wrong):

The claim that the U.S. is an illegal aggressor in Iraq is obviously false because Saddam was a criminal head of state and has been invaded by a former accomplice who now denounces him and hopes to replace him with a more pro-American government. Therefore, the U.S. has to be a liberator and cannot be an aggressor. Any other alternative is impossible, something worthy of ridicule.

This is an example of what I mean by being so addled with propaganda that war supporters do not even have the tools to articulate a coherent position.

[ QUOTE ]
"And these people support the Saddam Hussein regime and basically hold these folks up as shining examples of freedom fighters."

[/ QUOTE ]
This is an example of what I meant by outright lying. You have been called on this before and know full well that virtually no American who opposes the war is guilty of supporting Saddam and promoting terrorism. You also can't identify a single example of any antiwar leader saying anything of the sort. Yet you continue to libel me and all other antiwar activists as promoters of dictatorship and terrorism.

Chris Alger
12-08-2005, 11:11 PM
"Those words mean very specific things."

Perhaps they should but the propaganda apparatus has turned them into buzzwords. "Terrorism," for example, is by definition something the U.S. never does (at least, not any more). So it doesn't make any difference that key officials implicated in contra terror remain in government, presumably part of the "war on terror," which would mean war on themselves if the word had any substance. As for "democracy," the often translates into "propping up pro-American autocracies." The U.S. gives military and police aid to help the house of Saud maintain its chokehold over Arabia and calls it "promoting democracy in the Middle East."

[ QUOTE ]
Proponents of the war don't deny these things, they just see a greater good behind them.

[/ QUOTE ]
They don't "see" any greater good they just hear the President or the MSM assert it and accept it as gospel. For what "greater good," for example, did the U.S. help turn Latin America's oldest democracy into a brutal military dictatorship replete with all the characteristics of a fascist takeover? Further, if you alter this question and ask the average war supporter if it happened at all, my guess is that they'd have no knowledge of it. And the ones that do invoke the same crude utilitarianism you do, the same line used by Stalinists and promoters of Victorian workhouses. Of course, when it comes to their own objects of contempt (like the terrorism they don't like), utilitarianism goes out the window, replaced by the lofty rhetoric of bright-line moral supremacy.

Cyrus
12-09-2005, 06:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The Personal History of Saddam Hussein (http://www.emergency.com/hussein1.htm)


According to reports by Hanna Batatu (a government reporter), Hussein rose quickly through the ranks, due to his extreme efficiency as a torturer.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's only part of the picture. Torturers do not usually become heads of state.

Saddam Hussein rose through the ranks and became chief honcho of Iraq for two main reasons:

1. He was the most cunning and ruthless at manoeuvering for power, and

2. He was an ultra-nationalist and a fierce anti-communist.

The latter endeared him no end to the people in Washington, who subsequently assisted any way they could (without upsetting the Israeli lobby), just as they did with most Ba'athists of the Right, in places such as Syria or Libya, who were equally anti-communist. Washington actively helped Hussein to fight off the secular, patriotic, "leftist" opposition and effectively remain in power.

This has passed under the bridge a long time ago...

Il_Mostro
12-09-2005, 06:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Those words [liberation, terrorism, democracy] mean very specific things.

[/ QUOTE ]
Define them,please

andyfox
12-09-2005, 12:48 PM
"freedom is not given, it must be earned by killing the fascists, communists, and other evils. Something the soft belly libs will never understand."

The soft belly libs fought the fascists and communists harder than anybody. They won the second World War, ran our foreign policy during the Cold War, dragging the hard belly conservatives along with them kicking and screaming all the way, created the military-industrial complex, and turned the United States into the military power it is now.

The idea that liberals are soft on foreign policy issues is a fallacy.

12-09-2005, 01:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Your whole post


[/ QUOTE ]

Soft bellied people, purely by definition, do not fight hard. You would have been better to argue that liberals cannot be automatically assumed as "soft-bellied", which is clearly evident by some of our decorated veterans serving as liberal politicians.

But instead, throughout your whole post you make idiotic historical transpositions across 70 to 80 years that clearly do not apply in any modern sense of the word "liberal" or "conservative", nor "Republican" or "Democratic". You do realize that Lincoln (Republican) is actually the creator of what Eisenhower (Republican) coined as our military-industrial complex? Seems like if I want to be that brief, I can simply chalk our military might up to Republicans, (this is completely ignoring Reagan as well).

You obviously credit our military might and our victory in World War 2 to FDR and "liberals", but I wonder, do you credit the winning of the Cold War to Reagan and "conservatives"? By your uncomplicated calculation then clearly Reagan won the Cold War, and therefore contradicts your later statement where "liberals dictated our foreign policy in the Cold War, dragging conservatives through it kicking and screaming"

[ QUOTE ]
They won the second World War,


[/ QUOTE ]

I think we would all like to see you elaborate on this statement and actually qualify the term "they."

12-09-2005, 01:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They won the second World War,


[/ QUOTE ]

I think we would all like to see you elaborate on this statement and actually qualify the term "they."

[/ QUOTE ]

You are just mad that liberal dems were in power when they won the second world war. Meanwhile, conservative republicans like Prescott Bush and family were investing in Nazi financial institutions.

12-09-2005, 02:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You are just mad that liberal dems were in power when they won the second world war. Meanwhile, conservative republicans like Prescott Bush and family were investing in Nazi financial institutions.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, troll, I lose sleep over it.

andyfox
12-09-2005, 03:37 PM
Lincoln was not the creator of what Eisenwhower was talking about; that was created in the aftermath of World War II with the advent of the Cold War.

Republicans have always attacked Democrats with the charge of soft belliedness. The Dems lost China; Johnson fought in Vietnam with one hand tied behind his back and then the Democratically controlled Congress hamstrung Nixon. Clinton is to blame for 9/11 by ignoring the developing menace of terrorism. And the Dems today are giving aid and comfort to the enemy and undermining the morale of our troops by criticizing the war in Iraq. It's an old story, that's why the history of the last 70 years are relevant.

ON WWII, the Repubicans were isolationist and did not want to get involved in Europe's war. The liberals Roosevelt and Truman were in the White House during the war.

From the end of World War II to the present time, the idea that liberals have been soft on defense is nonsense. They have led the way towards involving us in the affairs of other nations and in building up the Defense Department.

"You obviously credit our military might and our victory in World War 2 to FDR and 'liberals', but I wonder, do you credit the winning of the Cold War to Reagan and 'conservatives'? By your uncomplicated calculation then clearly Reagan won the Cold War, and therefore contradicts your later statement where 'liberals dictated our foreign policy in the Cold War, dragging conservatives through it kicking and screaming'"

You lose me there. We entered WWII in 1941 and were victorious in 1945. Roosevelt and Truman were the only presidents we had while we were at war. The Cold War began in 1945 and ended in the Reagan term. Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter and Reagan served during that time and the Democrats controlled Congress during much of the period. The fact that the Cold War eneded while Reagan was president does not mean that he won it. World War II, Korea, and Vietnam were, to quote Bob Dole, "Democrat" wars.

Lastly, it's obvious that Lincoln was a different kind of Republican than, say, George Bush 41. But Robert Taft, Everett Dirksen, and Melvin Laird are much more closely related to Bush. So I don't think it's idiotic to talk about "conservatives" or Republicans of the Cold War and post-Cold war period in the same breath.

bobman0330
12-09-2005, 03:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Those words [liberation, terrorism, democracy] mean very specific things.

[/ QUOTE ]
Define them,please

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you honestly believe that because we might disagree about some of the margins of these terms they become "subjective, empty labels"?

Democracy - A form of government in which the people elect their lawmakers.
Terrorism - Use of force against civilians by non-state actors to achieve political ends.
Liberation - Delivering people from an oppressing regime and replacing it with a democratic government.

Chris Alger
12-09-2005, 07:29 PM
"Democracy - A form of government in which the people elect their lawmakers"

Then Iraq under Saddam was a democracy and Israel isn't. Saddam was elected and the residents of the territories have no right to vote for or against their Israeli overlords.

A democracy is when the government operates and legislates according to the informed consent of the governed, ensured by the meaningful participation of the electorate. This is often qualified by a requirement of some level of protection given to individual and minority rights. Election rituals aren't sufficient.

"Terrorism - Use of force against civilians by non-state actors to achieve political ends."

So the contra compaign was terrorism and Reagan and the U.S. Congress in the 1980's were foremost among world terrorist sponsors. Know any Republicans who accept this? Do you think the Commander-in-Chief of the WOT does? And is all war by states where force is used against civilians, like the U.S. in Iraq, "state terrorism"? Or are you defining away this concept, Newspeak style, so that no one should ever think about it?

Terrorism is the use of force by states or non-state actors against civilians. All modern war involves terrorism.

"Liberation - Delivering people from an oppressing regime and replacing it with a democratic government."

And since the countries liberated from Nazi occupation by the Soviets held elections, they too were liberated, even as they had to toe the line to avoid further "liberation." The very idea of any government thinking itself sovereign, much less democratically so, while under foreign military occupation, the occupiers immune from the sovereign's laws, is ridiculous.

Liberation occurs when the liberated are free to chose their a meaningfully sovereign government, not when their government must operate according to the dictates or largesse of a foreign occupier.

The Truth
12-12-2005, 05:58 AM
I think arguing about weather democrats did this or republicans did that is rather pointless.

It is more important to analyze where the opinions of mainstream society stood at this time, and what exactly the popular left wing and right wing ideas were at the time.

We can always get more right wing then the ideas handed to us by our popular right wing writers. There is always much further left than the popular left wing writers of our time.

It is more important to argue the merits of a stance or cause than it is to argue the superiority of a group.

blake