Screwed up Bellagio 3k Bubble

[sirio11]

Ok here are the facts

20 people left playing in tables A, B and C.

18 places are paid.

18th paid $6,900

Blinds are 1k-2k with 300 ante

I have about a 32k stack

I'm playing at table B

A guy in my table just lost a big hand and announces he's all in in the dark with less than 1k.

I'm dealt 77 UTG, since I want to be sure the AI guy is gone and want to win the blinds, I raise to 8k. UTG+1 calls and JC Tran in the button calls.

Pot is about 31k

flop comes JJ6

I check, UTG+1 checks and JC Tran bets about 8k

then I started to think and think

I know JC knows the bubble situation and he knows the AI guy has a random hand

I spent like 5 minutes and decided to call

Somebody went AI in table C and lost

19 players left

Hand by hand is announced

Turn card a Q and I check in the dark

Nobody noticed my check and after like 5 more minutes somebody calls the clock on me.

I told JC I already checked.

He then proceeds to bet like 20k

I have like 15k left and the pot is like 65k

18th money and 10th place money are almost the same

The floor is at my table

So, I asked that if I call and lost, Am I the guy with the bubble money? I'm just thinking about the AI guy (with 1k and random hand and me.

Somebody in the table (maybe possible even in the rail say yes)

The floor didn't say a word

So, I'm assuming it's true and make the call

JC Tran has TT and bust me out

After some minutes, I'm told that we're splitting 18th money 3 ways !!!!

The guy in table C, the 1k guy and me !!!

I go nuts and I am pretty mad because the floor didn't say a word when I asked.

So, instead of paying me $6960, they are giving me $2330

Is there anything I can do?


Help !!!!

[whiskeytown]

it's supposed to be the shortest stack gets 19th -

I think you could probably make a case in a Tournament Rules guide - otherwise, you're boned - but you did ok in another one, right /images/graemlins/wink.gif

RB

[ansky451]

I think you should simply look up whatever tournament rule book they are using for this event. I'm pretty sure there is a standard operating procedure for a situation like this.

[zambonidrivr]

limp preflop, fold to the raise.

GG

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
limp preflop, fold to the raise.

GG

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure I like raising 1/4 of your stack UTG with 77. Even with the big ante, I don't think you can push. You are basically trying to steal the blinds, so, if you have to raise, make a smaller raise you can get away from.

Also, the fact that there is the player allin in the dark is a disadvantage. Even if everyone folds, you can still lose the main pot. Limping is a possibility. I assume the table is tight with the bubble. Otherwise, I would fold 77 UTG with 16xBB and the short stack allin. I really don't like raising here.

[suckbot]

Sounds to me that the moral of the story is make sure it comes from the mouth of the floor.

In general sounds like the whole situation got a little frenzied with the missed check, called time, then all-in bet, etc.

Still think it should have been paid out by starting chipstack.

[boedeker]

The strange thing is - how would they be able to manage the pay by starting chip stack? everyone counts their chips before each hand during h4h?

[betgo]

Are you allowed to bet out of turn and go allin in the dark? There might actually be a point to the play, as it might effect the action favorably for you. The short stack also has to pay ante each hand and gets good pot odds allin, so he usually wants to go allin.

[MikeSmith]

why raise so much w/ 77? just call and check it down with whoever else. If someone else bets in this situation then you are probably beat, dont assume he is trying to win pots pre bubble unless he has been buying pots left and right prior to this hand im folding.

[bruce]

Most casinos will do exactly what happened to you when you busted out on the bubble. If multiple players bust when
going hand for hand either at the same table or different tables the money is divided equally regardless of how many chips you started with. It's very difficult for a casino
to keep track of chip counts at multiple tables. At the final table when two players bust than whoever has the most
chips to start with winds up with a higher place. In this
scenario the tournament director knows exactly how many chips a player has prior to the start of the hand. This is
at least the procedure used in all of the So. Ca. casinos
and at the WSOP.

Getting back to your hand why play pocket Sevens UTG. There's one all in player already and unless you move all in BTF someone might try a squeeze play on you. When JC bets
I have to figure that he probably has a better hand than me.
What's his calling range BTF? Either a pocket pair which almost has to be bigger than yours or Ace Big. With a big
Ace I'd expect him to reraise BTF. There are a lot more combos of pocket pairs than AK. Even if we include AQ in his calling range your behind. I doubt he would call in that spot with AQ anyway.

Bruce

[ QUOTE ]
The strange thing is - how would they be able to manage the pay by starting chip stack? everyone counts their chips before each hand during h4h?

[/ QUOTE ]

the other player went out before the h4h. doesn't that matter?

[boedeker]

[ QUOTE ]
Most casinos will do exactly what happened to you when you busted out on the bubble. If multiple players bust when going hand for hand either at the same table or different tables the money is divided equally regardless of how many chips you started with. It's very difficult for a casino
to keep track of chip counts at multiple tables. At the final table when two players bust than whoever has the most
chips to start with winds up with a higher place. In this
scenario the tournament director knows exactly how many chips a player has prior to the start of the hand. This is
at least the procedure used in all of the So. Ca. casinos
and at the WSOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was what i was trying to say in a less articulate fashion.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
this was what i was trying to say in a less articulate fashion.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

well, honestly, here's the thing for me:

this is only a problem like, once a tournament, right? and only on the specific hand where more than one person busts out and suddenly we're in the money. it's not like it's not easy to know that that is happening. finding out how much money someone had to start a hand shouldn't be that hard retroactively for a single event.

c

[Temp Hutter]

[ QUOTE ]
When JC bets I have to figure that he probably has a better hand than me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would say no. JC can be very aggressive and is capable of betting total air like he has the nuts. He is also capable of making a tough laydown so I would rather put him to the test than the other way around.

[odiggity]

u have an M of 5. did u think u could get away from the hand after betting 8k? blinds are about to put u in the red zone so a push PF would be reasonable. push or fold PF seem like the only 2 logical plays.

[bruce]

Agreed he's aggressive, but not stupid. His flop bet might
be air. There's a pretty big side pot already, but when he
bet's the turn there's a pretty good likelyhood that he has
something and it's better than pocket Sevens.

It's easy for me to be a Monday quarterback, but when JC calls BTF shouldn't alarm bells being going off. Is he
really going to call with KQ or AT? I think with him not
reraising he has defined his hand as a medium pocket pair probably higher than Sevens. Would he flat call with AK
or AQ? I don't know what his stack size was before but I'm almost certain he would reraise with these hands.

Bruce

[Riverman]

Your play is pretty bad here, first of all. This raise to 8k is all risk and little reward, and when called the bells should have been going off- even aggros dont go bluffing at dry side pots when someone is all-in this late in a tourney.

As for your problem, it is your fault for not clarifying the rule with the floor before acting.

[stevepa]

[ QUOTE ]
Your play is pretty bad here, first of all. This raise to 8k is all risk and little reward, and when called the bells should have been going off- even aggros dont go bluffing at dry side pots when someone is all-in this late in a tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

This side pot is far from dry, the guy is all-in for 1000. The side pot is FAR bigger than the main pot, this "people don't bluff when someone is all in" is what makes this such a good bluffing spot. As for the rest of the hand, it's a tough spot and I certainly don't think it was played poorly. The floor decision seems pretty ridiculous to me...

Steve

[citanul]

sirio,

what is hinted at in another post i think is fairly relevant.

while i'm not too much a fan of the utg raise with a tricky good player who has you covered to act behind you, that's what we've got.

the guy's good and aggressive, and sure the flop bet can be lots of hands.

i think that the turn bet is much less likely to be a call that's close to reasonable with 77. i think there's further problems because if you lead at the pot he's not in a terribly difficult spot. you wouldn't normally lead the turn with AA, KK, a queen, and he doesn't have a great reason to put you on a J. At least I don't see the check call flop lead turn that often here with AA, KK or a Q.

c

[locutus2002]

I'd fold PF.
I'm not playing 77 on the bubble if I can't play it without thinking about the consequences, which are real or we wouldn't be having this post.
After your opening bet there is 31K in the pot. On this flop I'd be pot committed and I'd bet out. It's a little late to worry about the bubble, seeing where you're at and hoping you'll get paid.

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
If multiple players bust when
going hand for hand either at the same table or different tables the money is divided equally regardless of how many chips you started with.
...
This is
at least the procedure used in all of the So. Ca. casinos
and at the WSOP.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, the WSOP did not use that procedure this year. (At least, not consistently.) In a WSOP tournament I played, when two players busted out at different tables at a point when there was a jump in the prize money, the player who began with the hand with the larger stack got the bigger prize.

[sirio11]

Well, I just talked with Jack McClelland and of course they won't change a thing; but he gave me a comp dinner for 4 though; I guess my most expensive dinner ever.

Well, lesson learned, even if it sucked I should have waited for a direct statement from the tournament director at that point before calling with my chips. I'm pretty sure he didn't say a word when I asked because he didn't want to affect the other 2 players, but still I didn't have to act and I should have demanded an answer from him before acting.

I'm pretty sure my internet background affected me in this one. When the guy went out in the other table in the internet that's an automatic 20th place and then hand by hand start, since the other guy in my table has almost no chips, that was an automatic 19th in my head, for some reason, I still asked !! but in the heat of the moment and with so many people talking I took the lack of answer by the floor as a confirmation of what everybody was saying; a $4640 mistake I'm pretty sure the other 2 guys in the bubble really apprecciate.

On a more important thing, I really need to work in my enjoying of tournaments results; when I'm playing I feel great, but after my 4th place finish and this bubble I felt so frustrated. Twice in the money out of 6 tournaments played and I feel so bummed; how sick is that.

[ansky451]

[ QUOTE ]
Twice in the money out of 6 tournaments played and I feel so bummed; how sick is that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ambition is a good thing. Good luck in the main event.

[betgo]

I realize $4K is a lot of money, but you really shouldn't worry so much about the bubble anyway. You should be playing for the top spots at the final table.

If I am multitabling a $20 online 20-table tournament, I am not going to be too concerned about getting $40 for making the 2nd table. I am looking for the $1080 for 1st and the other top prizes. Similarly for a $300 live tournament. Just because the stakes are bigger, you shouldn't let the bubble cloud your judgement.

Congratulations on a good finish in a big tournament.

[Exitonly]

uh..

you absolutely should let the bubble "cloud your judgement" if thats what it takes to make the best decision. The bubble isn't to be just ignored. Yes first place is a lot of money, but that doesnt mean you just ignore 1.5 or so buyins that you could get just by folding.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
but you really shouldn't worry so much about the bubble anyway. You should be playing for the top spots at the final table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

So, I have a short stack and raised with 77 UTG !! with 20 players left and then called JC Tran bet in the flop based on my read and I'm concerned about the bubble /images/graemlins/confused.gif

That said, you should make decisions that make you the most money at all the points in a tournament. If you are in the bubble you make decisions about the bubble situation, because they are clear and of course you're still trying to maximize your chances to win the tournament; but I think you can't decide to win a tournament with 20 people left.

Some of you guys act like when in the bubble and faced with a decision the options are:

a) Caring about the bubble, making the money and not winning the tournament ever because you care about the bubble

b) Not caring about the bubble, taking risks even stupid ones and winning the tournament because you're some kind of poker superhero who just cares about winning the tournament

I can assure you that the problem is a little more complex than that.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
uh..

you absolutely should let the bubble "cloud your judgement" if thats what it takes to make the best decision. The bubble isn't to be just ignored. Yes first place is a lot of money, but that doesnt mean you just ignore 1.5 or so buyins that you could get just by folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 1.5 buyins has some value, but when you are this close to the big money, it shouldn't be your main consideration about folding a hand where you are not sure if you are ahead. If hero called and won this hand, he probably would have had a good chance at the final table and much buger money.

This is not to say I think the call was correct. I am not as good a player as OP, but I wouldn't have played this hand as he did on any street.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
uh..

you absolutely should let the bubble "cloud your judgement" if thats what it takes to make the best decision. The bubble isn't to be just ignored. Yes first place is a lot of money, but that doesnt mean you just ignore 1.5 or so buyins that you could get just by folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 1.5 buyins has some value, but when you are this close to the big money, it shouldn't be your main consideration about folding a hand where you are not sure if you are ahead. If hero called and won this hand, he probably would have had a good chance at the final table and much buger money.

This is not to say I think the call was correct. I am not as good a player as OP, but I wouldn't have played this hand as he did on any street.

[/ QUOTE ]

didn't OP say that he wasn't anywhere close to the "big money" betgo, your reasoning seems really, really bad here.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
uh..

you absolutely should let the bubble "cloud your judgement" if thats what it takes to make the best decision. The bubble isn't to be just ignored. Yes first place is a lot of money, but that doesnt mean you just ignore 1.5 or so buyins that you could get just by folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 1.5 buyins has some value, but when you are this close to the big money, it shouldn't be your main consideration about folding a hand where you are not sure if you are ahead. If hero called and won this hand, he probably would have had a good chance at the final table and much buger money.

This is not to say I think the call was correct. I am not as good a player as OP, but I wouldn't have played this hand as he did on any street.

[/ QUOTE ]

didn't OP say that he wasn't anywhere close to the "big money" betgo, your reasoning seems really, really bad here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he wins the hand, he has 70K with 1K/2K blinds. I assume that would rank him fairly high with 18 players left and 9 for the final table. It seems to me that he would have had a good shot at the top places. I assume first prize was like $200K. I know $4K seems like lot, but it is not by comparison.

When I multitable $20 180-player SNGs, I don't concern myself much with the $40 for the 2nd table. I am playing for several hundred dollars. Same thing if I play in a $300 side event. The prize structure is similar. I don't see how the strategy changes if you multiply the numbers by 10 or 150.

That's the way I have found works in playing tournaments this size. I play for the top spots at the final table and don't worry much about cashing.

[Exitonly]

i don't think anyone is arguing that he should play for first. but you dont do that by ignoring the bubble. I'm just saying it should be included in his thinking (and it was) when he has a decision to make.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't think anyone is arguing that he should play for first. but you dont do that by ignoring the bubble. I'm just saying it should be included in his thinking (and it was) when he has a decision to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 4K difference between 1/3 of 2nd table and 2nd table is a factor. However, hero's expectation is probably about 60K if he doubles up, 25K if he didn't play the hand, and 15K if he folded. I just don't think it is that big a factor.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't think anyone is arguing that he should play for first. but you dont do that by ignoring the bubble. I'm just saying it should be included in his thinking (and it was) when he has a decision to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 4K difference between 1/3 of 2nd table and 2nd table is a factor. However, hero's expectation is probably about 60K if he doubles up, 25K if he didn't play the hand, and 15K if he folded. I just don't think it is that big a factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think doubling more than doubles his EV?

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't think anyone is arguing that he should play for first. but you dont do that by ignoring the bubble. I'm just saying it should be included in his thinking (and it was) when he has a decision to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 4K difference between 1/3 of 2nd table and 2nd table is a factor. However, hero's expectation is probably about 60K if he doubles up, 25K if he didn't play the hand, and 15K if he folded. I just don't think it is that big a factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think doubling more than doubles his EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

Doubling up more than doubles his chip count with blinds, antes, and the short stack allin. Plus it puts him in like 5th place with a good shot at the real prizes. He should have an advantage with a fairly big stack on the final table bubble.

Yeh, at this point, I think gambling to double up is advantageous. I usually look for a chance to create a big confrontation and double up or bust at this stage of a tournament.