You might not like this preflop...what about postflop?

[imported_smoove]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

<font color="blue">Villain was 36/7/1.8 over 200+ hands. Rest of table roughly split between tight and loose players (sorry that's so general).</font>

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, SB calls.

<font color="blue">Yeah...I open limped this. Fold it most often here? Raise it? I know it depends on many factors...I'd say this was an average Party table.</font>

Flop: (8 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 folds, SB folds, BB calls.

<font color="blue">Was this nutty?</font>

Turn: (6 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds.

<font color="blue">Well, ok then. Did I just luck out here? See below in white for what the guy told me he mucked after much hesitation...blew my mind.</font>

Final Pot: 7 BB

Villain said he mucked: <font color="white">AK!!!!!</font>

it think we're all guilty of A rag suited limp ins utg every now and again... i'd have no problem limping in a very loose passive game...

i'm not quite sure why the hell he mucked that... was obviously lying to you...

[Jake (The Snake)]

What does everybody think about checking this turn?

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
What does everybody think about checking this turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like it. What is your reasoning?

[hobbsmann]

I raise preflop.

PREFLOP: A9s is a borderline hand UTG, but I believe there are many party tables where limping here is profitable

FLOP: Youre getting 9-1 to call, I would estimate that you have 5 pure outs, which means you have the odds to call, but becuz there is a chance you may have the best hand here, raising is the best option. The BB could easily have AQ,AJ,AT and making a bad continuation bet. Plus if the BB has QQ,JJ,TT you may induce him to make a bad fold later on in the hand.

TURN: Given how you played the flop, and the fact that you only have one opponent standing between you and this pot, you must bet this turn. Checking and taking a free card with your made hand is not an option in this decent sized pot. Plus there is still a chance the BB will fold a hand that has you beat like QQ,JJ,TT. But he cant make this bad fold if you dont bet.

I think you played this hand excellently postflop and that is much more important than whether your A9s preflop call is right or not.

[SNOWBALL138]

[ QUOTE ]
What does everybody think about checking this turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why, so you can induce a call/value bet from TT on the river?

[SNOWBALL138]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you raise preflop? He didn't say anything except that its a typical party table. You don't think that raising a9s utg at a typical party table is correct, do you?

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you raise preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because I like our hand. Because we will get called by worse hands. Because it probably doesn't matter either way and since raising is fun, raise.
[ QUOTE ]

He didn't say anything except that its a typical party table. You don't think that raising a9s utg at a typical party table is correct, do you?

[/ QUOTE ]
I do, although at a typical 2/4 table limping might be superior.

[ QUOTE ]
FLOP: Youre getting 9-1 to call, I would estimate that you have 5 pure outs,

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget about the backdoor flush. I'd add another 1.5 to those outs.

[jskills]

Well played on every street.

If he calls the turn, you're checking behind on the river of course ...

A villain was 36/7/1.8 folding TPTK after a single flop raise? Yeah right.

[imported_smoove]

[ QUOTE ]
A villain was 36/7/1.8 folding TPTK after a single flop raise? Yeah right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect he might have said that in an attempt to trick me into exclaiming, "WHAT??? You folded TPTK on the flop?? To one bet?? I had ___!"

I wouldn't limp A9s UTG, but I'm too tight as it is /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I like the flop raise, turn raise also

check behind on the river if he calls you

[Cancuk]

I sincerely doubt a player at 2/4 w/ those stats is folding TPTK to a flop raise.
I like postflop, but I think you should be careful..heres why:

what's the playes range raising multiple limpers from the BB? JJ+, AQo+, something like that?

You lose to all of the hands except AQ, so inless you think he can make a fold w/ a lower PP (I think this guy was lying), I would tread carefully...that's all.

Also, fold PF.

[imported_smoove]

[ QUOTE ]
I sincerely doubt a player at 2/4 w/ those stats is folding TPTK to a flop raise.
I like postflop, but I think you should be careful..heres why:

what's the playes range raising multiple limpers from the BB? JJ+, AQo+, something like that?

You lose to all of the hands except AQ, so inless you think he can make a fold w/ a lower PP (I think this guy was lying), I would tread carefully...that's all.

Also, fold PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he was lying too...trying a little trickery perhaps. Sure, I lose to TT-QQ. But if he's just praying not to see an ace or king on the flop and gets immediately raised, how likely is a guy like this to give up on the turn? And as other posters have suggested, I would have checked behind him on the river if he'd called the turn.

Just fold it preflop? Aw, that's no fun at all. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

*grunching*

Call UTG with A9s?! What is this, three-handed? Fold preflop. You're asking for kicker trouble otherwise. I only call Axs in late with a bunch of limpers (raise/fold otherwise.)

Flop raise...interesting play. Either raise or fold I guess. Pot is getting big with a lot of players hanging around. It worked, didn't it?

Turn - yes you got lucky. Villain is lying IMO, no way does he muck TPTK against that raggedy board and a single raise. He's just trying to make it look like he wasn't bluffing, which he was.

NH (?!)

ScottieK

I think this limp is fine at most party 2/4 tables so if your table is "average" it should be ok.

With the BB raising pf it is possible this is just a continuation bet and when you are behind with an over card and the bd nut flush draw you still can't fold this here. Raising is much better than calling because you have a chance to clear the field and get it hu.

Once he checks the turn I think you are ahead here a lot of the time and betting here gives you the chance to fold TT-QQ.

[gopnik]

Nah, bet the turn and take a free showdown if you don't improve.

[theghost]

Limp is marginal, depends on the table.

Flop raise is good imo. I'd rather raise than call if I'm playing, and I don't want to fold here.

Turn bet is pretty necessary, I'd probably fold to a c/r.

No way he had what he said he had.

[imported_smoove]

[ QUOTE ]
No way he had what he said he had.

[/ QUOTE ]

I went back and looked at the HH. He simply said, "AK," right before he folded. So now I'm thinking I misinterpreted that. He probably meant, "You have AK." If so, it's a bit strange that he'd think I'd limp with it UTG. OR...he lied in an attempt to get me to show. OR (and this was my initial reaction)...he probably hadn't seen me open limp anything to this point--he possibly thought I'd open limped 66 or 99, saw a monster under the bed, and mucked.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not right in the Party 2/4 games. However limping is okay on most tables.

[ QUOTE ]
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FLOP: Youre getting 9-1 to call, I would estimate that you have 5 pure outs,

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget about the backdoor flush. I'd add another 1.5 to those outs.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is how I calculate my pure outs in this situation. The hero has 5 outs to two pair/trips but I only assign that draw as 4 pure outs since the hero is not drawing to the nuts so he can still be drawing dead sometimes to a set or he can make his hand on the turn but still get rivered. I give the backdoor flush 1 pure out(I know small stakes gives this draw 1.5 pure outs, but I see it as 1 pure out which I dont think is much of a difference. So 4 pure outs + 1 pure out = 5 pure outs. So I already took into account the backdoor flush draw.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FLOP: Youre getting 9-1 to call, I would estimate that you have 5 pure outs,

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget about the backdoor flush. I'd add another 1.5 to those outs.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is how I calculate my pure outs in this situation. The hero has 5 outs to two pair/trips but I only assign that draw as 4 pure outs since the hero is not drawing to the nuts so he can still be drawing dead sometimes to a set or he can make his hand on the turn but still get rivered. I give the backdoor flush 1 pure out(I know small stakes gives this draw 1.5 pure outs, but I see it as 1 pure out which I dont think is much of a difference. So 4 pure outs + 1 pure out = 5 pure outs. So I already took into account the backdoor flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your reasoning and I wouldn't give this any more than an additional 1.5 outs than you did, anyway. Regardless, we'd play it the same way.

[Jake (The Snake)]

oops

[Jake (The Snake)]

All of these hands are still possible on the turn with possibly a few more:

AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, KJ

Of these, against the hands that are slowplaying against us, checking is clearly better. Checking also allows us to see a SD without the risk of being bluff c/r'ed off the best hand.

Against hands that we are ahead of, they all pretty much only have 2 or 3 outs against us.

Notice that there are no flush draws and pretty much no reasonable straight draws to be worried about on this board. Checking will often induce a bluff from a worse hand or induce calls from worse hands when we bet on the river.

Also, if a hand like AJ (which probably would've folded to a turn bet) spikes an Ace on the river, we get to collect 2 more bets.

The problem of course is that we can push off hands that are beating us like QQ-TT, which I drunkenly thought we were ahead of when I posted the idea last night. If they fold to a turn bet then betting is almost certainly better... if not I can see checking though since we aren't too worried about worse hands catching up in this small pot.

[Buck_65]

I raise this preflop unless I have sufficient reason not to, like if I'm running bad and being isolated often in combination. The hand plays out significantly differently if you raise preflop. Since you didn't, I play the same postflop. Nice hand.