Playing from the blinds: KJ

[Scuba Chuck]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG (t1005)
UTG+1 (t2200)
MP1 (t680)
MP2 (t645)
CO (t1365)
Button (t595)
SB (t725)
Hero (t785)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t120) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t30</font>, CO calls t30, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises how much? </font>

[bluef0x]

175.

However I raise when it gets to me to about 125.. I don't want people staying in and would like to take it down now or at least know where I'm at.

Bet 180 (pot) and fold to a raise. I think if you get a caller I'm open pushing most blank turns here. This hand might play out simpler if you just pot it first in, but I like the checkraise as well so you don't get 3 smoothcallers and no info. OOP on such a draw-heavy flop.

[Taraz]

Do most people push the turn if the checkraise gets called? If you do, then I'm more weak-tight than i had previously thought.

[ QUOTE ]
Do most people push the turn if the checkraise gets called? If you do, then I'm more weak-tight than i had previously thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

Barring a scary card like the 7 of diamonds, yes.

[player1]

i would raise it to 150-175. having said that, i prefer betting out the standard amount (90ish?) to see how everyone reacts. might be cheaper that way to get away from it...

[player1]

[ QUOTE ]
Do most people push the turn if the checkraise gets called? If you do, then I'm more weak-tight than i had previously thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

definitely, if it was heads up. with 2 opponents, probably, but not too sure.

Can somebody volunteer their opinions regarding trying to check-raise vs leading the flop (about 100-120 with two others in the pot, I'd say).

Also, does the 1/4 pot bet from UTG+1 mean he has a drawing hand and is hoping to see some cards cheap, or a good hand that he's trying to slow play while still building the pot? Or, does it just mean that he hit the bet button without any thought about bet size? I tend to think it means nothing, but am curious about others' opinions.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to think it means nothing, but am curious about others' opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that more often than not, he thinks he has the best hand, at this moment, so he's trying to take it cheap. For example, perhaps he has a mid pair, or AQ.

[11t]

This is not a good flop to check-raise, it is draw heavy and might encourage a push from hands such as a str8/flushdraw combination. Also villain could potentially hold KQ and give you a little rope to hang yourself with. You are being pushed out of this pot by sets 100% of the time and by check-raising you are paying too much for information.

I'd prefer to lead for 90, fold to a raise. If called I'd really put on the brakes. You are beating KT, that is it. If called, I'd lead a turn brick for 2/3 the pot and muck to a raise. If a diamond hits you may just want to check/fold. If called on the turn I'd value check/call a less than half pot bet on a river brick and check/fold all other situations.

[durron597]

With a coldcaller to the minbet, I'm raising to AT LEAST 175 if not 200. I also fold to a push. If I get called, I reevaluate based on who called me and the turn card.

Hm, just rechecked stack size, 175 is about right.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a good flop to check-raise, it is draw heavy and might encourage a push from hands such as a str8/flushdraw combination. Also villain could potentially hold KQ and give you a little rope to hang yourself with. You are being pushed out of this pot by sets 100% of the time and by check-raising you are paying too much for information.

I'd prefer to lead for 90, fold to a raise. If called I'd really put on the brakes. You are beating KT, that is it. If called, I'd lead a turn brick for 2/3 the pot and muck to a raise. If a diamond hits you may just want to check/fold. If called on the turn I'd value check/call a less than half pot bet on a river brick and check/fold all other situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, this thought process is precisely the reason I like the potential c/r. If one of our opponents has KQ, he is not betting thirty into this pot here unless he has the KQ of diamonds perhaps. If the action gets heavy, it's easy to release, having invested nothing into this hand.

I guess the only troubling spot in this route is when it's checked to LP, who pots it. But I gain the most information when MP bets first.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

I guess the only troubling spot in this route is when it's checked to LP, who pots it. But I gain the most information when MP bets first.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would probably call this and lead the turn for about 180 - an amount that can get folds from flush draws and looks like it commits you but really doesn't.

Let's change the min-bet (because those really don't happen very often) so that the action is:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed)

UTG (t1005)
UTG+1 (t2200)
MP1 (t680)
MP2 (t645)
CO (t1365)
Button (t595)
SB (t725)
Hero (t785)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t30, 2 folds, CO calls t30, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t120) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets t100, SB folds, Hero ?

Or, if they are both on draws, to:

Flop: (t120) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks

Maybe these scenarios are highly unlikely, or are good for the check-raise approach. I really am just trying to understand the approach. I probably attempt a check-raise far too infrequently.

[11t]

If you are going to check then check/calling then leading out a non diamond/str8 turn is far more preferable to check/raising on this board.

Check/raising here is a losing player here in SH NL and it is a losing play here in tournaments. You never get paid off by worse hands, only by better.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Check/raising here is a losing player here in SH NL and it is a losing play here in tournaments. You never get paid off by worse hands, only by better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already get paid with their bets. If I just lead a draw will probably call me and then I'll be in an awful spot on the turn because I don't know if I got called by a king or a draw.

However, by check raising I make draws make bigger mistakes and can often get away from worse hands cheaper than check calling, because my 1 check raise is fewer chips than villian's bets on all three streets (if I decided to call down).

[ QUOTE ]
However, by check raising I make draws make bigger mistakes

[/ QUOTE ]Can't draws just take their free card?

[jeffraider]

Bet flop! Checking this flop sux0rs because no one has shown aggression and there's only two left to act. You're giving a multitude of draws chances to check behind here. Bet 2/3s of the pot on the flop and turn and then check-call (or fold) scary rivers or bet like 1/3 of the pot on nice ones.

[curtains]

I check and then flat call the 30 chip bet. Whether this is correct or not is another matter altogether.

[bigt439]

I'll ride durron on this thread. He's pretty much right on every account.

You check here to see what goes down. Big bet I call and lead turn and slow down after that. Small bet like this looks like you can check raise, although calling and leading out a safe turn isn't a crime. Leading here is rough because of your stack size, the likelihood you'll get called, and the fact that when you do get called you don't know what's going on.