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Dave D
12-08-2005, 02:06 AM
edit: 77 left in a party 20+2. 150 paid.

I think this call is really close. 6 outs gives me 24% equity or so, and I'm getting 2 to 1 on the call, plus the king high might be good? The one thing is that when a small stack min raises like that on the button, I tend to think monster b/c normally he'd just push, but he seems to be begging for action.

Not too many reads on the table or this villian. Table was made not too long ago.

What would you do? Comments on PF and postflop play appreciated. On the flop villian has about 3100 left, which is about the size of the pot.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1500 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t13202)
UTG (t22889)
UTG+1 (t32273)
MP1 (t33812)
MP2 (t25158)
MP3 (t19465)
CO (t20173)
Button (t6192)
SB (t49462)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
[color=#666666]6 folds</font>, [color=#CC3333]Button raises to t3000</font>, [color=#666666]1 fold</font>, Hero...

flop comes 357r.

hero...

12-08-2005, 02:18 AM
Well, if you thought like you said...that he was probably begging for action...then why did you call?...you said you were getting 2:1 odds and you thought you might have a 25% chance?...i'm folding PF...after his raise...there's no way all his chips arent getting in the middle...i c/f flop

Dave D
12-08-2005, 02:26 AM
It's something I only really thought of later after making the call, that he might be begging for action. Generally I think I need to call there b/c I'm getting such a good price for that flop.

Even though I'm getting slightly less than the pot odds, I still have to consider the future of my tournament. I'm playing for first, so I think I need to gamble. Also, the high card might be good...

ansky451
12-08-2005, 02:40 AM
Stop and go looks good here.

el_dusto
12-08-2005, 02:59 AM
I am deeply and intensely confused by short stack's minraise PF. Unfortunately, he probably didn't get this far without realizing that once he's in this hand, he's in it to the end. In all likelihood, you're not moving him off this one (and I don't think that was ever really your intent).

That being said, I don't think your K is good. It's remotely possible he has KJ/T, QJ/T, or JT, but I'd be more worried about any A, especially A-rag, and low pocket pairs.... or, of course, the slowplayed monster. I check, cry a little inside, and fold to his inevitable push.

12-08-2005, 03:00 AM
Most of his possible hands have you dominated pretty good.

Dave D
12-08-2005, 02:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I am deeply and intensely confused by short stack's minraise PF. Unfortunately, he probably didn't get this far without realizing that once he's in this hand, he's in it to the end. In all likelihood, you're not moving him off this one (and I don't think that was ever really your intent).

That being said, I don't think your K is good. It's remotely possible he has KJ/T, QJ/T, or JT, but I'd be more worried about any A, especially A-rag, and low pocket pairs.... or, of course, the slowplayed monster. I check, cry a little inside, and fold to his inevitable push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I basically felt obligated to call PF, it was all about the post flop situation really.

I *knew* he had a monster with that min raise. Whenever a shorty min raises like that instead of pushing (which conventional logic says he should push) it usually is a monster.

I called villian's push, he had kings, and my hand is no good. Just gotta keep it in mind for next time.

ansky451
12-08-2005, 02:22 PM
In that case, remind me to open min raise your big blind from the button with 4x BBs with 72o instead of pushing. I'm always looking to increase folding equity.

Dave D
12-08-2005, 03:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
In that case, remind me to open min raise your big blind from the button with 4x BBs with 72o instead of pushing. I'm always looking to increase folding equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doing that assumes that you're willing to call a push/get your push called. I think players that do this are basically conceeding that they're willing to let the other player see 5 cards in exchange for the action. He would still have to call if an ace flopped.


So it wouldn't work with 72...

Ansky you avoided answering the question, sort of. Would you call his push (I know you said you'd push yourself).

rwanger
12-08-2005, 03:38 PM
Tiny stacks do this alot with solid hands. They would hate to just take down the blinds with their monster. If you haven't seen him min raise before, then you fold.

If you've seen him min raise once or twice before, then stop and go is your play since he's gauranteed to call a reraise pf.

jcm4ccc
12-08-2005, 04:32 PM
This is almost certainly a huge hand. Even the most donkish villian will see that he has FE against you if he pushes. he may not know the term "Folding Equity," but he will intuitively understand that you are not calling off half your stack with nothing.

If the villian is attempting a steal with a clever move, it is an incredibly high risk move. He is min-raising into a big stack (the SB). A donkey may not think about that. But he has another 6 hands before the blinds hit him again. A donkey is DEFINITELY thinking about that.

A good player will look to steal when the situation is favorable. A donkey is hoping and praying to hit a huge hand. With that stack size and in that position (six hands to go before the blinds hit), there is nothing in-between.

12-08-2005, 05:29 PM
I agree with the above statement... However, you have to add to the fact... has he min raised with an all in stack before? I think thats what he's saying. Say he had a big stack and min raised but then lost a big pot and min raised again, he could still think he has a big stack and is afraid to commit all his chips preflop with a hand like QJ,KT,KJ,A9 etc... or even AK. OR he could be trapping w/ a monster like AA. If this is the first time u've seen him do it, like said above, just fold, otherwise stop and go.

ansky451
12-08-2005, 10:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In that case, remind me to open min raise your big blind from the button with 4x BBs with 72o instead of pushing. I'm always looking to increase folding equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doing that assumes that you're willing to call a push/get your push called. I think players that do this are basically conceeding that they're willing to let the other player see 5 cards in exchange for the action. He would still have to call if an ace flopped.


So it wouldn't work with 72...

Ansky you avoided answering the question, sort of. Would you call his push (I know you said you'd push yourself).

[/ QUOTE ]

I was referring to this comment:
[ QUOTE ]
I *knew* he had a monster with that min raise. Whenever a shorty min raises like that instead of pushing (which conventional logic says he should push) it usually is a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]


I would stick KJo in there somewhere, I really don't care that he happened to have kings. When someone has 4 bbs I basically consider them to be all in if they put money in the pot. If he pushed, you insta-call right? I hope so.

In this spot since I know hes committed, I'd probably try to stop and go, on the off-off-off chance that he might fold like A2, on a Q98 board or something like that. It's not because i think it will work very often, if ever, its just better than check-calling w/ king high. But the way you played it, if i checked the flop, I'd have called his push blind.