Difficult Post Flop Hand: ($33)

[Scuba Chuck]

....at least difficult for me.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t1350)
MP1 (t1445)
MP2 (t485)
CO (t910)
Button (t890)
SB (t820)
BB (t810)
UTG (t1290) <font color="white"> Ks Tc </font>

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t50, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t200</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, UTG calls t150.

Flop: (t475) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t90</font>, Hero calls t90.

Turn: (t655) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t400</font>, Hero calls t200.

River: (t1455) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t600 (All-In)</font>, Hero ???

Any thoughts on any streets welcome. I will give my thoughts later....

[rbear]

Draw heavy board. I don't let villian name price of draw. I
pop it up to 300 on the flop. If villian pushes over, I call. If not, I reevaluate where I am on the turn. How come no reads, as you've both obviously been in showdowns thus far.

[pooh74]

I'm gonna just ask questions for a change. What's your thinking on this flop? What's the plan Sam?

(IOW I hate it, unless your plan is X, and maybe your plan was "x" but villain's betting changed everything and your plan just turned to $ht)

I'd call here.I think he has KK because of call UTG and his bet on the flop is perhaps to find out if you hold the ace. your weak call tells him you dont have it and he hammers at you till you drop your hand.

Only call because min raise on turn could indicate AA.
my 2 cents

oh and raise the flop and youd be less clueless

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna just ask questions for a change. What's your thinking on this flop? What's the plan Sam?


[/ QUOTE ]

I was gonna wait, but I'll answer now.

I hate this flop. My first thought is that this guy flopped 2 pair. But in my experience, AJ/AT will c/r here. I feel a little better, or less concerned about the FD because I have the Ad in my hand. I called, because I wanted to see what the turn brings. I guess I don't feel horrible folding losing only 290 on this hand if I think this hand goes worse.

Ok, so I have a small bet on the flop and a check on the turn, I now think I'm ahead of this guy. So I bet $200 because I figure he's on the FD now. OK, he c/r's me. No good. I now am worried about the straight. But again, I made a real weak turn bet, so it's difficult to decide. Thinking back on this hand, I should have bet 400 on the turn. Anyway, I called.

The river is a brick, and he pushes. I'm confident he does not have 2 pair, so he either has a straight, or I'm ahead. It's a tough call I think.

[bluef0x]

I like the call on the flop if he bet like 150+ just so he fires another barrel on the turn, but since he didn't I raise there to about 175ish. I bet 250-300 on the turn. When he raises I push right there. The way you played it your only putting pressure on yourself. Let him decide to fold or bust.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I call the river.

[xJMPx]

You're completely discounted TT, JJ here? They seem likely to me with the action.

That small bet on the flop, followed by the c/r on the river screams monster to me. I think KQ, TT, JJ are all possibilities here.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
You're completely discounted TT, JJ here? They seem likely to me with the action.

That small bet on the flop, followed by the c/r on the river screams monster to me. I think KQ, TT, JJ are all possibilities here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think JJ, TT raise PF...The likely hands (IMO) that he is losing to are AJ, AT, and KQ. The flop bet is either very strong (from a donk) or very weak (from a donk).

BTW, KQ seems the most likely here (of hands that beat you, FWIW, you're ahead enough to call on river)...especially given that scuba has an ace, the flop bet and CR turn, allin river.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]


That small bet on the flop, followed by the c/r on the river screams monster to me. I think KQ, TT, JJ are all possibilities here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but not limited to... (and you forgot AA)

What makes this interesting to me, is the turn check. I don't think that TT/JJ/KQ are checking, and potentially letting it check through with a FD on the board after I make that call on the flop (with the exception of maybe KdQd). What really made feel good about this hand is the turn check. That being said, I think I made a mistake by making a call on the turn c/r. I think I need to decide on the hand right there.

After I thought it through, the river was an easier, yet still tough call for me.

The one hand I was most worried about on the river was A6.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna just ask questions for a change. What's your thinking on this flop? What's the plan Sam?


[/ QUOTE ]

I was gonna wait, but I'll answer now.

I hate this flop. My first thought is that this guy flopped 2 pair. But in my experience, AJ/AT will c/r here. I feel a little better, or less concerned about the FD because I have the Ad in my hand. I called, because I wanted to see what the turn brings. I guess I don't feel horrible folding losing only 290 on this hand if I think this hand goes worse.

Ok, so I have a small bet on the flop and a check on the turn, I now think I'm ahead of this guy. So I bet $200 because I figure he's on the FD now. OK, he c/r's me. No good. I now am worried about the straight. But again, I made a real weak turn bet, so it's difficult to decide. Thinking back on this hand, I should have bet 400 on the turn. Anyway, I called.

The river is a brick, and he pushes. I'm confident he does not have 2 pair, so he either has a straight, or I'm ahead. It's a tough call I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

this all begins with the flop call. If he has a weak A he thinks he's ahead on your turn bet perhaps which explain the river push. I think you're ahead here enough to call, but not raising the flop "to see what the turn brings" is a bit passive for my tastes...

I would re-raise on the flop to see where you stand. Given that you just called, I like betting on the turn... and the min-raise is suspicious. I think at this point it's a push or fold.. calling does nothing for you.

[mlagoo]

hmm...

i think the flop is the cheapest street to gain information. i would raise him there.

if i decided to take a passive line, im checking through the turn, calling a river lead, and betting a river check (and calling a river CR).

This hand is only difficult because you made if difficult, IMO. Villain's tiny bet on the flop is either someone who is trying to price in their draw, doesn't know what they're doing, or is trying to induce a raise. You showed strength preflop, an ace, jack and ten flopped.... Show more strength on the flop and raise it 300 or so. If I'm villain and I can't beat AK or two pair and my probe bet gets raised, I'm out of there. If he pushes over the top, I think you can fold against most opponents as he's going to show you KQ, 2pair or a set here pretty often. If he folds, the pot is already decent sized. If he calls and checks a blank turn, I don't hate checking behind to control the pot (lose less when behind), and calling a reasonable bet on the river, or betting a callable amount if checked to.

This hand is really read-dependent. If you think UTG is a horrible/straightforward player who could have A-rag here and won't fold, value-betting all streets becomes more right. If he is tricky, raise the flop and proceed with caution. The problem with just calling the flop is you don't know where you're at, and when you get checked to on the turn you almost have to put money in the pot with TPTK so you can win a decent amount with a pretty strong hand. However, after making your obligatory bet a checkraiase will make you want to vomit, as here....

I think your best line is to raise 250-350 on the flop and fold to a reraise, check behind if checked to on river, and call a reasonable bet on river/make a callable bet if checked to on river. This will win the most against KK, A9, AQ QJ or KJ and lower and lose the least against the huge amount of hands that are beating you here (AJ, AT, J10, KQ, 1010, JJ, etc.).

[Taraz]

Of the people who advocate raising the flop, what do you do if he reraises all-in on the flop?

I'd fold without reads.

[TEBPilot]

I'd have to advocate a raise on the flop for information. I would bump it up to about 250. If he calls then you are going to have to slow down. Without any reads, I would fold to an all in reraise. There is no need to risk the tourney so early with top pair. If you fold, you still have chips to play with

[adanthar]

Well, he doesn't have A6 here. A4, maybe, but not A6 unless he lucked into it.

I probably raise or bet or something more than these underbets you're throwing out because neither you or I have any idea where you are on any street, and on this board, that's a problem. As it stands, I can't really justify a fold anywhere, but that's because I can't put him on a hand.

[Scuba Chuck]

After thinking about this hand overnight, it has just dawned on me what villain has been trying to do. He was trying to represent the ace. Another way of saying this, is that villain thinks I have a hand like KK/QQ here.

Anyway, for those who care, he had Ks Tc. I guess if I had taken the time to think about what I think he thought I had, it might have been a little easier to understand the line he took.

[pineapple888]

Without reading the others...

You're behind to a ton of likely hands here, so I treat this as a drawing hand, which should make my action clear.

I'm calling the small flop bet.

I'm checking behind on the turn.

He still bets big on the river in this case, I let it go. I don't mind the occasional times I've folded the best hand or would have chopped. I call a smallish bet, though.

[kevkev60614]

I raise the flop to about 350 and fold to a reraise. If called, I check behind the turn. Then I fold on the river to his push. Then I punch my screen and use bad words to describe his mom.

If you are going to fold to a river bet, I think checking behind on the turn is really bad. When you check behind, you basically say you are weak/drawing. This will induce far weaker hands to bet/push the river, and IMO you should tend to call barring reads. The benefit of checking behind on the turn is that you induce bluffs from weaker hands, and keep the pot reasonable if your opponent has a monster. By the way, I don't think most people who beat a AK push the river after you check behind on the turn. They want value from their hand, and they will probably make a callable bet.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to fold to a river bet, I think checking behind on the turn is really bad. When you check behind, you basically say you are weak/drawing. This will induce far weaker hands to bet/push the river, and IMO you should tend to call barring reads. The benefit of checking behind on the turn is that you induce bluffs from weaker hands, and keep the pot reasonable if your opponent has a monster. By the way, I don't think most people who beat a AK push the river after you check behind on the turn. They want value from their hand, and they will probably make a callable bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might be surprised how few 33 players have any clue how to value bet the river.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to fold to a river bet, I think checking behind on the turn is really bad. When you check behind, you basically say you are weak/drawing. This will induce far weaker hands to bet/push the river, and IMO you should tend to call barring reads. The benefit of checking behind on the turn is that you induce bluffs from weaker hands, and keep the pot reasonable if your opponent has a monster. By the way, I don't think most people who beat a AK push the river after you check behind on the turn. They want value from their hand, and they will probably make a callable bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might be surprised how few 33 players have any clue how to value bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may be true. However, the probability that villain's push on the river is a bluff given that you check behind on the turn is way higher than probability of villian bluff pushing after you bet the turn. This disparity leads me to think that if you will fold to a push on a brick river, you should bet the turn and fold to a checkraise or a call/lead push. This way you have a lower chance of mucking the best hand. I still think the best line is to bet out pot or checkraise pot on the flop, check behind on the turn, and call a bet on the river or bet 1/2 pot if checked to.