Why am I getting creamed at these games?

I'm getting killed in these ring games, I don't understand it. It's not because I'm getting outplayed because the players SUCK. It's not because I'm playing too many hands because I'm not. Could I be getting a bad run of luck? This is what happened tonight, and these kinds of things have been happening to me in general almost every time I play.

A little while into it I get pocket queens in the cutoff position. It's raised by someone in MP, and I 3-bet it. Donkey in the SB cold calls, and guy in EP who limped in decides he's gonna cap it. The original raiser folds, and it's 3 of us to the flop. Flop comes J-3-2 rainbow and the donkey in the SB bets. I raise, he calls. EP guy calls his bet, and then my raise. Turn comes 4s. Donkey bets out again, EP puts in his final $1, and I raise again. This guy is a Donkey for cold calling 2.5 raises, so I'm not giving him any respect. If he had a good enough hand preflop he would've/should've capped it. River is the 9h, and he bets out again. I raise him again, he calls and turns over pocket 3s. He flopped a set. Unbelieveable. So almost right off the bat I'm $7.25 in the hole.

Another hand I'm in the BB with Q-6o and everyone folds to the SB who limps in. Flop comes A-Q-x, he bets, I raise, he re-raises, I call. Turn comes a blank, and I fold to his bet. Sigh, I thought my middle pair might be good, but I'm not calling two more bets to find out if it is.

Another hand I get pocket Jacks and I raise with them. I of course get plenty of company, four calls. Flop comes all clubs with a Queen. I have the Jc so I'm not completely screwed. I bet, and everyone calls. Turn comes the ace of spades. I bet again (probably foolishly, but I figure maybe since the betting goes up I can get people to drop out of the hand). I get check-raised and I know I'm behind. I call hoping for a flush on the river or the 3rd jack. The other 3 people drop out btw. River comes 9h and the remaining player bets. I type in the chat "I'm not paying off an ace" and I fold. I don't care that the pot was laying 11-1, I was 99% sure they had an ace, so I'm not wasting money paying it off.

Another hand I had AKo in the SB, I raise and the the BB immediately calls (they checked the check/call button). 1 other person who limped in calls also. Flop comes K-J-4, 2 clubs. I have top pair and no redraws. I check with the intention of check-raising to protect my hand, but it gets checked around. Turn is the 3s, I bet this time, and of course the BB calls. The other guy folds. River comes 5c, I check, they bet, I call. Of course they have 5-4 for two pair. How bad do they play? I'm always the one paying off their crappy hands, it should be the other way around.

So these are the kinds of things that always seem to be happening to me. Another thing is I'll have a hand like QJ in EP or MP and I'll call and it'll get raised behind me, so I have to put in another bet and it's 8 SB to the flop. Flop comes A-8-4 or something, giving me 2 undercards and no real draws. Then I have to fold even though the pot is big.

Anyone have any advice for me? I've read SSHE, gone over it a few more times. I feel that I've grasped enough of the concepts so that I can at least make a decent profit, especially at these Fishy $.50/$1 games.

[Eeegah]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm getting killed in these ring games, I don't understand it. It's not because I'm getting outplayed because the players SUCK.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, move up to $15/30 or 30/60. The players there suck a little less, so you should do better.

[Felipe]

I'm gonna share my thoughts and opinions.

[ QUOTE ]
Another hand I get pocket Jacks and I raise with them. I of course get plenty of company, four calls. Flop comes all clubs with a Queen. I have the Jc so I'm not completely screwed. I bet, and everyone calls. Turn comes the ace of spades. I bet again (probably foolishly, but I figure maybe since the betting goes up I can get people to drop out of the hand). I get check-raised and I know I'm behind. I call hoping for a flush on the river or the 3rd jack. The other 3 people drop out btw. River comes 9h and the remaining player bets. I type in the chat "I'm not paying off an ace" and I fold. I don't care that the pot was laying 11-1, I was 99% sure they had an ace, so I'm not wasting money paying it off.

[/ QUOTE ]

What evidence is there that your opponenet had an Ace? How long had you been playing with (against) him? I would have certainly folded if my opponent was a very tight passive rock, or a very passive fish that comes alive with very good hands. Getting 11:1 is good enough barring reads, I would wager.



This:
[ QUOTE ]
I check with the intention of check-raising to protect my hand, but it gets checked around.

[/ QUOTE ]
with this:
[ QUOTE ]
I'm getting killed in these ring games, I don't understand it. It's not because I'm getting outplayed because the players SUCK. It's not because I'm playing too many hands because I'm not. Could I be getting a bad run of luck? This is what happened tonight, and these kinds of things have been happening to me in general almost every time I play.

[/ QUOTE ]
and this:
[ QUOTE ]
So these are the kinds of things that always seem to be happening to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly don't belong in the same post.

Your opponents didn't make a single mistake on the flop with your AKo hand. YOU MADE THE MISTAKE. Admit to yourself your mistakes, and you will play better poker. (I'm still working on that myself.)

I can recommend a good book (find it used if you can) It is called "zen and the art of poker" (forget author, just search it). It emphasises the notion that just because you are a better player strategically, doesn't mean that you deserve to win anymore than anybody else. Poker is a game of random outcomes, and those outcomes often do NOT benefit the GOOD players, they benefit the bad ones. THis is most unfortunate, but a reality that every player must accept. If you make "fewer" mistakes than your opponents (and less costly ones of course) you will win. But poker is great game that tests your patience, and if you just "can't wait to nail it to those fish" maybe footballs a better sport. You can sack the sorry players immediately, and earn the immediate rewards that that offers (if any). In poker, your rewarded if you are patient. This books helps you realize that you only have control over YOUR own decisions. You cannot crontrol the cards or the other players


I just caught this one at the last second:
[ QUOTE ]
Another hand I'm in the BB with Q-6o and everyone folds to the SB who limps in. Flop comes A-Q-x, he bets, I raise, he re-raises, I call. Turn comes a blank, and I fold to his bet. Sigh, I thought my middle pair might be good, but I'm not calling two more bets to find out if it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

A good play here is read dependent. I would probably have done similar , but my decision would have had more bearing on my opponents tendencies and/or habits. You should include those reads when you are discussing hands in the forums.

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]
Another hand I had AKo in the SB, I raise and the the BB immediately calls (they checked the check/call button). 1 other person who limped in calls also. Flop comes K-J-4, 2 clubs. I have top pair and no redraws. I check with the intention of check-raising to protect my hand, but it gets checked around. Turn is the 3s, I bet this time, and of course the BB calls. The other guy folds. River comes 5c, I check, they bet, I call. Of course they have 5-4 for two pair. How bad do they play? I'm always the one paying off their crappy hands, it should be the other way around.

[/ QUOTE ]

you aren't always paying off their crappy hands. Your hand is obviously the crappy one. It didn't win. Don't expect rewards cause you've been a tight, aggressive player like Miller suggested. You deserve nothing.

You opponent made a mistake on the turn. He called a bet getting 3:1 pot odds (i figure only 3 ppl saw the flop?) By calling, he is going to win 1 time in 9. He's got 5 outs. in odds form that's 41:5 against his hitting his 5 outs. That works out to around 8:1, but he's only getting 3:1 pot odds. Here (on the turn) you should thank him for his stupid call.* You win in the long run when players make calls they shouldn't make, or fold with hands that they shouldn't fold!

Have you read the theory of poker!? It's a very deep book which goes into the heart of the game of poker in ALL variations. It talks about this. SSH does also!!! I suggest you re-read it!!!


--------------------------------------------
*The math behind this is quite simple

He invests 1 BB to win 3BB
His E(x) or mathematical expectation for the call is:

E(X) = 3 (1/9) - 1 (8/9)
= -0.555...

Each time someone makes a call in a scenario like this, you opponent loses money, and you are gaining it. In this case, you win MORE than 1 small bet every time! This is not to mention the lead you had preflop, and the flop. You made money on those streets too.

[bottomset]

you are likely nowhere near as good as you think you are

and aren't playing as good as you think either

Thanks for the replies. What mistake did I make on the flop with top pair though? Should I have just bet at it? There were 6 SB in the pot, if I bet I'm offering 6.5:1 on a call. Check-raising was the better play in my view, and so was waiting for the turn, where my bet offered 4:1 (not 3:1 right because my bet added to the 3 already in there would make it 4:1). Yeah, I should be thankful for calling stations, but I was just a little frustrated tonight. I should try to pay more attention to my opponents tendencies as well. I haven't read TOP, but maybe I'll pick it up. Thanks again.

[crovax4444]

alright, not to be too harsh on you, but I see a few mistakes in your hands. Since there are vague reads

Hand 1, you were up against a set with an overpair. You were going to lose money no matter what. You just ran into a bit of bad luck

Hand 2, Ya did it right, as it was said earlier, you prob had the worse hand to begin with, and you tried pushing it. It failed, and you folded.

Hand 3, bad luck again, but I think you played this correctly. Btw, it's -EV to chat. FYI.

Hand 4, raise the flop, you have a problem with FPS

Hypothetical hand 5, QJ isn't strong enough in EP or MP according to SSHE (MP is read dependent if your going to play with it, and that's if it's folded to you. Then I'd consider a raise depending on # of players left and how strong they are)

So in conclusion, you have some bad luck, plus your not playing too well. Keep reading SSHE, grunch a lot (80% of my ~100 posts are grunches), read SSHE (I'm on my 2nd read through as well).

Crovax

I'm just curious how many games you've played?

[milesdyson]

damn another one of these threads...

guys, just don't respond to it. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

to the op: there's a beats, brags, and variance forum now. go post this there and get railed.

[MrWookie47]

Naw, the Micro guys are too benevolent and helpful for this. They always turn it into something good and helpful before I can move/lock it. /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[12ozLongneck]

[ QUOTE ]
Another hand I get pocket Jacks and I raise with them. I of course get plenty of company, four calls. Flop comes all clubs with a Queen. I have the Jc so I'm not completely screwed. I bet, and everyone calls. Turn comes the ace of spades. I bet again (probably foolishly, but I figure maybe since the betting goes up I can get people to drop out of the hand). I get check-raised and I know I'm behind. I call hoping for a flush on the river or the 3rd jack. The other 3 people drop out btw. River comes 9h and the remaining player bets. I type in the chat "I'm not paying off an ace" and I fold. I don't care that the pot was laying 11-1, I was 99% sure they had an ace, so I'm not wasting money paying it off.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might want to skip putting stuff like this in the chat window. An observant player might make note of this and spend the rest of his time at the table taking shots at you when scary cards hit.

Also, this is worth a read: Those Damn Fish!!! (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=491819)

[TripleH68]

This is serious advice.

Play money tables.
This is where you belong until you understand the game a little better.

[shant]

Here's the forum you're looking for. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=beats)

Ever here the quote, "Poker is a lot like sex, everyone thinks they're good at it but most people don't know what they are doing?" You are a premature ejaculator w/small rod that thinks he's Ron Jeremy.

I'm no expert, but I know enough to recognize that you have a lot of work to do. There are numerous mistakes in the hands that you posted, which other posters have pointed out. Reading SSHE does not automatically make you good. The material in any of the 2+2 books is usually fairly advanced and takes some time to digest and understand. Getting good also takes a lot of practice. Many people play for a year or more before becoming consistant winners. Some people never become winners.

You should study a lot and constantly work on your game as you play. BTW, don't play in play money games; I don't think they help much. If you're losing too much money to handle you can move down as low as .01/.02 til your game starts improving. Never be satisfied. GL

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Ever here the quote, "Poker is a lot like sex, everyone thinks they're good at it but most people don't know what they are doing?" You are a premature ejaculator w/small rod that thinks he's Ron Jeremy.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

why do you think you are good? serious question

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]
damn another one of these cold critics...

guys, just don't respond to it. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

to the op: there's a beats, brags, and variance forum now. go post this there and get railed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Enough of your cynicism. Quit wasting your own time. Turn your poker wisdom into $$$ and let the newbies learn in these forums.

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the replies. What mistake did I make on the flop with top pair though? Should I have just bet at it? There were 6 SB in the pot, if I bet I'm offering 6.5:1 on a call. Check-raising was the better play in my view, and so was waiting for the turn, where my bet offered 4:1 (not 3:1 right because my bet added to the 3 already in there would make it 4:1). Yeah, I should be thankful for calling stations, but I was just a little frustrated tonight. I should try to pay more attention to my opponents tendencies as well. I haven't read TOP, but maybe I'll pick it up. Thanks again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having the flop checked around is among THE WORST things that you could have let happen. You let it happen. Since you CANNOT BE *SURE* of someone else betting (you preflop raised...they might be scared) you *MUST* bet. "IF i bet I'm offereing 6:1 on a call" That's correct! But if you check, you offer them 6:0!!! That's WORSE!

Waiting for the turn is also very bad. If they have a single A of trump (the flush suit), you check the flop, it gets checked around. Now another trump suit shows up on the board. Your opponent with A of trump has picked up a 9 out draw! FOR FREE! You have to bet, and let them make a mistake by calling you. When you check, they are making no mistakes

YOU ARE.

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]
I type in the chat "I'm not paying off an ace" and I fold. I don't care that the pot was laying 11-1, I was 99% sure they had an ace, so I'm not wasting money paying it off.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might want to skip putting stuff like this in the chat window. An observant player ...

[/ QUOTE ]

At .5/1?? I think not. This is the least of OP's concerns. His post flop play has serious holes.

[car ramrod]

If you really want to become a good poker player you will. First you have to understand that variance is a bitch. You may just be running bad, or you may not be as good as you think you are. Or your opponents maybe better than you give them credit for.

Start replying to hands, see how your advice compares to others. Post a hand that you are unsure of. Don't post hands where you got sucked out on, or say your opponent is a river rat who catches on you every friggin hand. We see it happen every day, we don't need to hear about it here.

Study hard, think about the game, it's not just going to happen over night. Good luck to you.

First thing. It has been said, but I am very sure you are making your fair share of mistakes that are costing you money. The good news is, the people you are playing at .5/1 will make much more than you. The high rake dampers your win rate as well.

Running bad sucks, it makes you qustion you game and other things. Realize that!! You will very often have a losing session. I have had a 5 days of losing sessions before, that were made up for on one day where I ran well. Over that increadibly small stretch of time I feel I ran close to even, and my winrate represented my long turn rate.

The best thing you can do when this happens is realize that you can't do anything about it. All you can control is how you react to a bad run. If you cry about it, you will feel like a victim and compound your badluck with bad play.

Just make the best plays you can, and if you are as good as you think you are you will win.

And yes this happens to us all, and i beleive it has happened to others worse than you and I . I have had a 10 hand stretch where my pocket Aces got cracked. But still that hand is my biggest winner. I have had the same with Kings, still it is my second biggest winner. AK has missed more flops than it has it (that is supposed to happen) and still I am showing a profit.

Bad players play bad! If a bad player plays bad and draws out on you, congratulate him, tell him he is a great player, or say nothing. Don't get angry because they are doing what you want them to do, play bad. What you should be doing is getting excited. I have been in rooms with total morons that were just taking my money. I lost 20BB over an hour and kept my cool and refused to leave because they were so horrible. I figure it this way, if this is gonna be one of my bad runs, why not hav against bad players whom don't get enough value on thier hands, but give me too much on my winners. To end that story, I played for two more hours and left -3BB. My cards were pretty bad, and I won 6 out of 300 hands. The lucky part for me was that 5 of those 6 winners were massive pots padded by bad players doing what they do, playing bad.

Minimize your losses on your losers, and maximize your winners. Thats what gets the money.

Good luck

Finally,

Seems like the "donkey" played his pocket 3's the same way I would have. I admit that I suck. What site are you playing at? I'd love to be the next subject of your post about someone who sucks that just won.

[ QUOTE ]
why do you think you are good? serious question

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this to me or original poster? I didn't say anything about my own play being good. I feel like I'm moderately ok and am always working to improve. I hope I never feel content with my own play, which will keep me constantly looking to tweak my game.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why do you think you are good? serious question

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this to me or original poster? I didn't say anything about my own play being good. I feel like I'm moderately ok and am always working to improve. I hope I never feel content with my own play, which will keep me constantly looking to tweak my game.

[/ QUOTE ]

to the op, it really surprises me when people with little experience go and play a game and find they are losing....

when in any other game the first thought would be yeah, these guys are better, obviously i have quite a way to go... or if i play socially im just gonna be a net loser against these better players.

but somehow in poker people like this say... amazingly, that everyone else (the more experienced, positive players) are somehow worse than them because they dont play in a style that they read in a book somewhere.

i just find it interesting, was trying to get some insight.

shlucky: i didnt even realise you had responded in this thread until you replied to me

Thanks all for the replies and for not completely flaming me. The sex anaology line was funny, I liked that. I will take your suggestions. As for the question of why do I think I'm good, here's the thing. I started playing before I read SSHE and I was winning (small profit, but no huge losing sessions). Then I read SSHE and now I'm playing worse for some reason. I realize now that I'm probably not applying the concepts completely correctly, and I need to go back and re-read it. I only started playing this game last summer, a mere five months ago, so I have plenty of room/time for improvement. Alright, from now on I'm just going to post hands I have difficulty with and try to gain insight to. I'll also try to reply to other people's hands and see how my suggestions match-up. I think that's good advice. Thanks again.

[kiemo]

[ QUOTE ]
I realize now that I'm probably not applying the concepts completely correctly, .

[/ QUOTE ]

Your checking top pair after raising preflop is all the evidence you need to prove that you could eliminate the probably from the above quote.

Buck up though trooper. Every player has gone through the phase you are in.

[masse75]

[ QUOTE ]
If you really want to become a good poker player you will. First you have to understand that variance is a bitch. You may just be running bad, or you may not be as good as you think you are. Or your opponents maybe better than you give them credit for.



[/ QUOTE ]

As someone going through the often mentioned 200 BB downswing (over many sessions), all 3 are true.

Overconfidence:I'm better, I can knock this guy off his hand (yeah, right)
Losing to a donk play: Watch me slow play these flopped trip A's (guy goes runner-runner to catch the wheel, holding 34 on an A7A board.
Bad luck: Overpair loses to flopped bottom set.

[censored] happens. Deal with it.

[KingOtter]

One thing I fail to understand is why people think that a poker forum can be completely free from these kinds of posts.

Ignoring them won't make them go away. It's like there's bad mojo around downswing posts and people just don't want to hear about it.

It's poker. There is a large element of chance in it. Yes, skilled players can make consistent profits in the game but over any small sample variance can be a mother.

After 9 months of making a very good piece of change playing poker (on the order of 2000BB including bonuses), I am suddenly having a hard time keeping my bankroll. And this isn't over a small sample size. I'm seriously having a real hard time keeping even.

Have I suddenly started to suck? Have I suddenly started misapplying all the concepts I've been learning up until this point? I don't think so, but maybe. Sure, steaming and tilt has had some affect on my game. Then I over-correct and get super-cautious. It's nothing new in my game, it's been there since I started. I know it, I take steps to prevent myself from doing anything real stupid.

IMO the REAL answer to posts like this is a question, rather than a statement:

How bad do you want to be a poker player?

If the answer is REAL bad then:
- learn more
- read more
- pay very close attention when you play
- trust your skills even when you lose (evaluate yourself honestly, though)

And then how much money you win or lose is irrelevant (because once you're good, the money will take care of itself). Who cares if you played a hand terribly and lost 32BB on that one hand? Can you look at it, identify your errors and take steps to prevent it from happening again? Then you're better for it, and the 32BB might be well spent saving or making you money in the future.

Up to this point in my poker game I think I've been cruising. Learning just enough, not really getting INTO it. I have PokerTracker, I sort of go over my play. But I think I need to make a commitment to it to go to the next level.

And I don't know if I realized that until I just typed it just now.

KO

[checkmate36]

[ QUOTE ]
damn another one of these threads...

guys, just don't respond to it. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

to the op: there's a beats, brags, and variance forum now. go post this there and get railed.

[/ QUOTE ]