KQo in the SB.

[BigEndian]

I just got to this table so I don't know diddly about bupkus.

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (6 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises...</font>

- Jim

[CardSharpCook]

ah, yes. the old chk/rz with nothing. Look, either your hand is good or it isn't. I bet. Why? Becuase that's what you do when you have an ace. I also check/fold the river UI.

[BigEndian]

My opponent pretty much must have an Ace to continue here (occaisional flush draw).

- Jim

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
My opponent pretty much must have an Ace to continue here (occaisional flush draw).

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

that's just not true. This spew play is common enough that you should be calling down with any pair.

[BigEndian]

Look, I'm as open as the next guy to discussion and criticism. But to say that this play is "common enough" is absolutely false.

- Jim

[CardSharpCook]

ok.

[mterry]

I like the line, since it only needs to be good &gt;26% of the time to make money. A bet would have opened you up to a turn (semi)bluff, but it only has to be good &gt; 18%. Also you're likely to get someone to fold a weak 2 or 6 with the c/r line, right? However, if you get called by utg+1, what do you do on the following rivers:

Ac,Td,7s?

One of these guys has a weak ace I'd imagine. He's not going to let it go if he has it. I doubt someone with less than a set of aces is going to bet here. Although it has the potential (good potential) of foling out medium pocket pairs, the chances of him having an ace are much better IMO and therefore I don't think this play is a profitable one. I bet the BB is playing A-rag.

[Pog0]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet the BB is playing A-rag.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on absolutely nothing.

[ QUOTE ]
I doubt someone with less than a set of aces is going to bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I'm nitpicking when I say that "set" is the wrong term to use here.

Regardless, a lot of hands will bet here.

If you had an ace, you'd bet (usually). Your opposition will figure you for less than an ace. There's a good chance any pair will bet here or any cards.

How often, I don't know. It's an easy fold to a 3-bet, and if the hand goes on to the river, you check/fold. Are you folding out two hands 27% of the time? BB is folding without an ace, no reason to suspect he has one yet. UTG+1 open limped so we have some reasonable evidence that he plays junk. That junk includes an ace often, and that ace isn't folding. If he calls the c/r, he's folding the river 0% of the time unless he's on a flush draw, in which case, you're bluffing with the best hand anyway.

[Pog0]

check/fold all of them I imagine.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bet the BB is playing A-rag.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on absolutely nothing.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, based on the board and and the fact that he called your PFR from the BB and a flop bet with no real draws out.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I doubt someone with less than a set of aces is going to bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I'm nitpicking when I say that "set" is the wrong term to use here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do. You know what I mean. OK TRIPS. Does this change the analysis??
[ QUOTE ]

Regardless, a lot of hands will bet here.

If you had an ace, you'd bet (usually). Your opposition will figure you for less than an ace. There's a good chance any pair will bet here or any cards.

How often, I don't know. It's an easy fold to a 3-bet, and if the hand goes on to the river, you check/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. You always fold to the three bet but. . .
[ QUOTE ]

Are you folding out two hands 27% of the time? BB is folding without an ace, no reason to suspect he has one yet. UTG+1 open limped so we have some reasonable evidence that he plays junk. That junk includes an ace often, and that ace isn't folding. If he calls the c/r, he's folding the river 0% of the time unless he's on a flush draw, in which case, you're bluffing with the best hand anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you plan on showing down KQ unimproved to a busted flush draw with this big of pot? If this guy is willing to give up on his hand without venturing a bet on the river after you check, that's fine if you can figure your nut non-paired hand is good always when it's checked down. What do you do when the guy bluffs his busted draw?? You fold of course. This reduces the value of this play.

Although an interesting idea, this play is best left for heads-up action if you want to try it IMO. Also, the pot is small; you are risking two bets to win 5.5. I don't think the payoff merits the risk.

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
My opponent pretty much must have an Ace to continue here (occaisional flush draw).

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

That is absolutely untrue. You'll have an extremely tough time folding a pair with thise move. Besides, he'll have an A plenty. What's your plan if he calls? Check and fold(barf)? check and call(more barf) spew a fourth bet with K high (you get the pattern).

YOu were frustrated that a) you didn't hit, b)you didn't hit in the worst way possible, and c) no one is folding. I understand, we all feel that way, but this is just total spewing. I'd either bet the turn, or just check and fold depending.

[shant]

I'm with Mr. CardSharpCook in just betting out the turn again and if called, check/folding the river.

[BigEndian]

If I'm called, I'm done with the hand without second thoughts. I definitely wasn't frustrated at the time. This was a target of opportunity.

I checked the turn to see what happened and I think I fold to a bet almost always here. When it was bet on the end, two things occured to me: 1) my opponent's betting range is pretty wide here. 2) BB's chances of having an ace here is so small is could pretty much be said to be zero.

So instead of folding, I raised.

I think the crux of the argument is how often does this move fold an under pair. I think my opponent would have to be a show-downer of the worst kind to get past the CR.

- Jim

[ QUOTE ]

2) BB's chances of having an ace here is so small is could pretty much be said to be zero.


[/ QUOTE ]

I totally disagree. He is not raising if he has a weak ace because he figures you to either have him beat with a higher kicker, or you will continue betting a PP, in which case he doesn't mind letting you do the betting for him. He also must fear the player to act behind him having a bigger ace if you do not hold it so he may not bet the turn. I put his chances of holding an Ace significantly higher than 0%.

[ QUOTE ]
This was a target of opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll agree with you here in part. Yes this is an opportunity-an opportunity to make a play. This is not the oportunity that you want to focus on however. You should be asking whether this is an opportunity to make a play that figures to make you more money than it will lose in the long run. With all due respect, it seems to me that this was an attept to do something unconventional just for the sake of making a play rather than considering the EV of the play. Perhaps this is, in fact, a long-run profitable play, but I don't think so.

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the crux of the argument is how often does this move fold an under pair. I think my opponent would have to be a show-downer of the worst kind to get past the CR.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I just think your opponent is very very rarely folding an underpair. If he has elected to bet it, he most of the time isn't folding it. When I do this play I do it expecting my opponent be annoyed and call down like a fish, I never ever expect him to fold.

[DMBFan23]

I don't like it just because I believe in good optimal strategy shania without a really good read and I don't believe ppl play an A this way ever.

if you do play an A this way, then is this a good spot to run a bluff? I'm not sure, you do have the nut no pair so you're in the spot where few better hands call and few worse ones fold. if he'll fold a pair then maybe but I come from 6max where no one ever does that.

of course, you ahve two players to worry about as well, so parlays and pot size and blah blah blah