here's a fun hand.

[Guruman]

villain's first hand at the table.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $2. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, MP3 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>

I think there's a greater than zero chance that an unkown bets when checked to on the flop. I clearly can't just call with the opportunity to steal the whole thing or minimally get headsup.

once we got HU, I felt I had a shot to fold out a better pp or a six by leading out.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
villain's first hand at the table.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $2. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, MP3 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>

I think there's a greater than zero chance that an unkown bets when checked to on the flop. I clearly can't just call with the opportunity to steal the whole thing or minimally get headsup.

once we got HU, I felt I had a shot to fold out a better pp or a six by leading out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or, you could just fold your trash.

This is a small pot, multi way, and this doesn't work enough at 2-4 to warrant this much going in with bottom pair/no redraws.

[SNOWBALL138]

I think just folding on the flop is best.

[SlyGuy]

Fold.

i agree... folding is the best option...

however since you did decide to play it, raising and leading out is 1 billion times better then calling

[Guruman]

I don't see how this is such an easy fold.

Granted I would have folded a bet from anywhere else, but we've got all of ONE non-random hand in this pot, and no one's shown interest by the time it gets to the guy in position.

What's his range here?
What's your range here?

I think his is waaaay wide, and includes plenty of flush draws, ace highs, and worse deuces. It could also include foldable turn hands like 33-55 and single spade Kings.

why give up so easily?

We've got a hand and we're risking two to win six here (or four to win nine if we have to follow up). You guys may just give too much credit to random hands in position.

[Bill Smith]

[ QUOTE ]
why give up so easily? ...You guys may just give too much credit to random hands in position.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop...

1. It's a small pot. If the pot were larger, I could see putting up more of a fight.

2. We're out of position with a weak hand.

I'm not in favor of investing 3 BB (the raise on the flop is necessary to drive people out) in a 3 BB pot to keep someone honest with bottom pair in a 5-way pot. In order to make this play profitable, they need to fold a better pair or MISS a flush draw about 40% of the time. Between the times you're shown a Q (maybe even a 6) and the times the flush draw beats you (even by pairing up) I just don't think the flop raise is good.

[jskills]

This line is a bit of a stretch against an unknown.

One could make a case for folding the flop, but if you feel you must continue ... I'd just call the flop - and check / fold the turn unimproved.

What range of hands do you put him on? Odds are he's holding a Q and not a 6 or 2 yes? Do you think he's folding a Q? A flush draw? Nope.

What's your plan if he raises the turn?

[BigBrother]

If it doesn't work out, there is something to be said for getting more action at he table after showing down your trash.

I can see myself making your play, but it's a leak I'm trying to fix.

Eeew.

[gopnik]

I don't like it. Tiny pot and chip spewing

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
villain's first hand at the table.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $2. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, MP3 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>

I think there's a greater than zero chance that an unkown bets when checked to on the flop. I clearly can't just call with the opportunity to steal the whole thing or minimally get headsup.

once we got HU, I felt I had a shot to fold out a better pp or a six by leading out.

[/ QUOTE ]
ok i dont like this move because:
1)the pot is too small
2)there is a good chance the bettor has you beat
3)if not, at 2/4 you have a lot of passive cold callers who might have you beat but didnt bet and will call
4)the board is 2 flushed tainting your 2 pair outs

dont get me wrong. i pulled this move successfully but the pot was bigger and it was a rainbow board. I would wait for better circumstances. I like the turn bet.

[gopnik]

[ QUOTE ]
If it doesn't work out, there is something to be said for getting more action at he table after showing down your trash.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and by the time you get a playable hand more than half the table will be gone.

This stuff is worth considering when playing live.

[Guruman]

why are people counting outs here? I don't make this move unless I think I could be ahead. The flush draw should be the one counting outs.