domesticating chimps. why not

[[censored]]

I was watching animal planet yesterday and there was a piece on chimps being endangered and going extinct. I got to thinking and it seems like chimpanzees would make a great animal to domesticate, perhaps even better than the wolf. They are smart, can be toilet trained and bond with humans. Plus they could be trained to do all sorts of helpful things that dogs can't do while still providing security.

So why haven't humans ever set about domesticating the larger monkies? Putting aside the animal rights concerns doesn't this seem like a worth while endeavor?

[mostsmooth]

two words:
planet of the apes

[MonkeeMan]

They'll steal your stash and [censored] your woman and laugh about it.

[UncleSalty]

I think the issue is that chimps are so intelligent and share so much of our DNA that there are ethical questions with treating them like pack animals or dogs. It's pretty amazing the range of personalities and capability to learn these little critters have shown.

[Blarg]

They only work with very young chimps, basically just kids, in movies and t.v.'s because they get very cranky, even vicious, past just a few years of age. Biting stars and scratching them up actually does happen. They are also very strong even at a year or so old, so by the time they get a few years on them, they can basically tear us to pieces if they get the notion. And since their hostility and territoriality rises markedly as they come into sexual maturity and age, the notion they just very well might get. It's not worth the risk.

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the issue is that chimps are so intelligent and share so much of our DNA that there are ethical questions with treating them like pack animals or dogs. It's pretty amazing the range of personalities and capability to learn these little critters have shown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I'm sure this is alot of it. I wonder if facing ever decreasing numbers would change that at all. Is having domesticated aragatangs or chimps better than having non or very few at all?

[UncleSalty]

Blarg brings up excellent points as well. Think Sigfried and Roy, but with the added ability to use blunt objects as tools...

Edit: Which pretty much gets us to mostsmooths point.

Edit2: Except chimps can probably count to 4... /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[swede123]

Sure, chimps are among the smartest of animals, no arguing that. However, intelligence isn't necessarily the end-all quality desired when training and domesticating an animal.

A primate requires a TON of effort since the animal is so intelligent and advanced socially, so I just don't know if the work required would outweigh the benefit for all but the most advanced tasks.

Swede

[Emmitt2222]

[ QUOTE ]
They'll steal your stash and [censored] your woman and laugh about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is, how do you know the [monkey] isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little [monkey], but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times.

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They'll steal your stash and [censored] your woman and laugh about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is, how do you know the [monkey] isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little [monkey], but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell ya what, if you want me to domesticate a box and mark it "chimp" I will, I got spare time...

[rusellmj]

There was a local (socal) case earlier in the year where a guy was attacked by two chimps. He was visiting a chimp he raised that was now in a refuge. It was his chimps birthday IIRC. Two other chimps got jealous.

The attacking chimps bit off most if no all his fingers and some toes I believe. The guy suffered multiple savage bites to the groin and they gouged his eyes out.

I guess chimps like biting off fingers in an attempt to permanently mame their foe. The guys own chimp had bitten a ladies thumb off years earlier which is why he went to the refuge.

[gamblore99]

I have never really understood why it is such a big deal when a species go exticnt. Unless they are a really cool or useful species, or are imoportant to an ecosystem then who cares. Animals going extinct is natural selection (sometimes human selection too). I have no problem with animal rights activists, but it is stupid when someone cares about one animal more than the other only because its species number is low. Its species is dying because they suck.

[swede123]

[ QUOTE ]
Its species is dying because they suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be the single most stupid statement I have EVER seen on OOT. Congratulations, Sir.

Swede

you know I've been looking for a home. if anyone's willing to share a double, preferably in north kenya, pm me.

[ScottyP431]

Censored,

Chimps are not very nice, period. Look at anyone who works with them for any period of time, odds are very high they are missing some fingers. Chips also like to do things like throw feces at people at spit... all the time. They aren't like dogs in that they are often 2-3 times as strong as an adult human, so it would be difficult to stop a maurading chimp. In terms of training them, they are easily trained to do simple tasks like pushing buttons, when the reward is high and immediate. But censored's dream of armies of chimps performing useful services is not very likely.

It is only wild chimps who are "in danger" of going extinct. Captive chimps actually have somewhat of an overpopulation problem in that they breed rapidly in captivity and there is no where to put them all. Chimps are highly social animals, so it would be difficult to raise a "normal" chimp in isolation. A pretty interesting book called Chimpanzee Politics could be an interesting read from you. I took some classes from the author who's a big wig in the primate research world and it was pretty interesting to me and I bore easily.

"Aragatangs" are milder, but not by much. Also, they are asian, so they have no souls and no one would be interested in them.

[ThaSaltCracka]

does this happen when a chimp is raised alone?

[James Boston]

No one has addressed the most important issue here...[censored]'s triumphant return to 2+2. Ban some people. Good to have you back.

[lighterjobs]

[ QUOTE ]
No one has addressed the most important issue here...[censored]'s triumphant return to 2+2. Ban some people. Good to have you back.

[/ QUOTE ]

ban em all, let [censored] sort em out.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
does this happen when a chimp is raised alone?

[/ QUOTE ]

It just happens with chimps period. Part of their life cycle, so say their trainers. Which is one reason why the chimps you do see in movies and t.v. are usually very young. Jane Goodall, and others, have recorded a lot of their violence, too, between tribes and within them.

[Brom]

I believe in one of our human vs. animal type threads it was found that an average adult chimp is on around 5-7x stronger than average adult human. They can be quite tempermental, mix this with extra strong jaw muscles, and the ability to literally rip a person's head off, and they can make a poor choice for domestication.

I remember seeing a video (David Attenborough I believe) in my HS biology class of how chimps hunt. They basically used team work to surround and herd a monkey. Then they all grabbed onto it, and 4 of 5 of them all pulled and came out with a different appendage each. It was gruesome. Not a nice animal to have around.

[Blarg]

I've seen that one. I've seen several of them hunting and cannibalizing each other, too, including one where a band of them just went out looking for another chimp to kill at random and beat him to death with their fists. "Bonding."

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
you know I've been looking for a home. if anyone's willing to share a double, preferably in north kenya, pm me.

[/ QUOTE ]

i cant believe no one commented on this yet. i guess i dont have a comment other than "wow." i gotta admit i laughed pretty hard though because at first i just read the post and was confused and then i looked at the name/avatar.

[sublime]

u are still alive!

yay!

[TheMainEvent]

How do you think we ended up with the AIDS pandemic?

[tolbiny]

Male orangutans are very anti social- they are solitary most of the year and are only seen in roups during mating. They can be very territorial.
Domestication only occurs when animals (or palnts) meet many very specific requirements. Aggressive behavior (especially in territoriality) is nearly always a deal breaker and is seen in many of the apes.
If your interested in more info on dometication there is a good chapter in "the third chimpanzee" - which is an excellent book in many respects (written by the the "guns germs and steel" guy.

[slickpoppa]

Primates have already been domesticated, at least to some extent. Remember the episode of the Simpsons where Homer gets a helper monkey? Some old/disabled people do actually have helper monkees. I think the main reason why people dont have them as pets is because it takes a long time to train and domesticate them. As others have said, primates are naturally violaent and it takes a lot of effort to train that out of them.

[lu_hawk]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the issue is that chimps are so intelligent and share so much of our DNA that there are ethical questions with treating them like pack animals or dogs. It's pretty amazing the range of personalities and capability to learn these little critters have shown.

[/ QUOTE ]

We do experiments on chimps despite any ethical issues, but keeping them as pets goes too far?

[Blarg]

I agree that this is off the mark.

When I saw this thread, I thought of that attack as well.

Mauled genitals. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/03/04/national/a135417S47.DTL)

[OtisTheMarsupial]

[ QUOTE ]
So why haven't humans ever set about domesticating the larger monkies? Putting aside the animal rights concerns doesn't this seem like a worth while endeavor?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they are so smart and so human-like it would practically be slavery.

edit: yeah, what Uncle Salty said.

[PoBoy321]

WTF have you been for the last month?

[whiskeytown]

[ QUOTE ]
They only work with very young chimps, basically just kids, in movies and t.v.'s because they get very cranky, even vicious, past just a few years of age. Biting stars and scratching them up actually does happen. They are also very strong even at a year or so old, so by the time they get a few years on them, they can basically tear us to pieces if they get the notion. And since their hostility and territoriality rises markedly as they come into sexual maturity and age, the notion they just very well might get. It's not worth the risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

so in other words, they have the personality of your average OOT'er -

leave the monkey in the jungle.

RB

[kurosh]

I think I have to ask...

Who would win if 3 chimps fought a big [censored] gorilla?

[Blarg]

Gorillas literally pick up lions and break them, snapping their spines. If it were a big greyback, I think he'd scare the crap out of the chimps. I don't give the 3 chimps much of a chance.

Now, as to how many five-year olds a chimp could take ...

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure, chimps are among the smartest of animals, no arguing that. However, intelligence isn't necessarily the end-all quality desired when training and domesticating an animal.

A primate requires a TON of effort since the animal is so intelligent and advanced socially, so I just don't know if the work required would outweigh the benefit for all but the most advanced tasks.

Swede

[/ QUOTE ]

Dolphins are supposedly even smarter than chimps. Why is there no ethical considerations about training them and keeping them in captivity (besides the typical ALF stuff)?

Intelligence has nothing to do with this argument.


Oh yeah, /images/graemlins/heart.gif, welcome back [censored]

[Blarg]

As a contributory note on that theme, "bush meat," which is usually chimps, gorillas and small monkeys, has been very commonly eaten in Africa for ages and still is, in great quantities, today. Not a lotta respect going there either.

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
As a contributory note on that theme, "bush meat," which is usually chimps, gorillas and small monkeys, has been very commonly eaten in Africa for ages and still is, in great quantities, today. Not a lotta respect going there either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure that this is a leading theory on the transmission of SIV to humans as well.

Edit: After a quick check, I'm only half correct. SIV is related to HIV-2 which is only found in West Africa. This is still thought to have been caused by "bush meat." HIV-1, which cannot be transmitted to chimps and is the pandemic strain, is not directly related to SIV.

[Martin]

It's commonly believed in Africa that "bush meat" contributed to the spreading of Ebola.

A friend of mine worked on a pilot project training chimps to assist the disabled. It got scrapped mid way because of the animal's agression. Only very young ones were suitable. Once they became adults they were way too agressive.

[daryn]

i got your bush meat right here

[Evan]

You should focus on reindeer (http://seattle.craigslist.org/for/116605823.html) instead.

[whitelime]

I seriously wanted a pet monkey for a while. I figured, it's infinitely better than a dog. It has a brain, you don't have to clean up after it, and you can teach it to do some cool things.

I researched it and realized it's basically a lifelong commitment. They live for around 40 years. There are serious psychological issues you have to deal with. At one point, the monkey is basically guaranteed to attack you as a means of asserting control. Almost anyone that has a pet monkey has been bitten several times. There are cases of monkeys scratching or poking peoples eyes out. Disciplining it is very difficult. There are websites with this sort of information...

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
It's commonly believed in Africa that "bush meat" contributed to the spreading of Ebola.

A friend of mine worked on a pilot project training chimps to assist the disabled. It got scrapped mid way because of the animal's agression. Only very young ones were suitable. Once they became adults they were way too agressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way, did you hear the news? They finally found the natural reservoir for Ebola -- the animal that harbors it in the wild. Bats.

Sometimes at such incredibly low levels that certain DNA tests couldn't even find it when they were tested before. Confirmed now though.

[Martin]

Interesting since both Chimps and Gorillas are dying from Ebola, scientists figured it had to be coming from somewhere else.
I read that they thought the original source could be a rodent so I guess bats would be it. Any mention of how it's transmitted from the bats?
Flea bites would be my guess or maybe chimps eating bats.

[Blarg]

Ebola can be transmitted through the air or through touching anything that has had a germ contact it, and through bodily fluids. With bats, as the natural host, there won't be massive amounts of bodily fluids leaking or blood droplets etc. being coughed into the air, but of course you can put many millions of germs on the head of a pin. I'm sure just handling an infected bat could get you, or breathing the air it breathes, or eating it. The article I read did say that the amount of virus in many bats was extremely low, so perhaps you could go breathing the air of an ebola infected bat for quite a while without getting infected. I guess it depends what organs and tissues it's stored in, etc., as to its chances of making its way out into the world.

They are trying to ban the eating of bats now, but partially just to encourage people to stay away from them and not handle them.

[MrMon]

If it were simply a matter of aggression, you could breed that out of the chimps. The real problem with domesticating them is they breed too slowly. Take a look at all the animals that are domesticated. Almost all are quick to breeding age, all have young at least every other year. To domesticate, you need a large supply of animals from which to select, as you are literally creating a new species. (Elephants are the exception, but they aren't really domesticated, just trained.)

Once you have a large number of animals from which to select, the animal has to be genetically disposed to domestication, e.g. there has to be something that allows them to become docile. Even if you could get enough animals, sometimes the animal is just going to remain wild. Jared Diamond points out that ideally, Africans should have domesticated the zebra, but genetically, it's missing something found in the horse to allow it to domesticate. No doubt they tried, but ultimately failed, through no fault of their own.

So, great apes simply breed too slowly, plus, they're probably too smart to ever truly domesticate.

[CrazyEyez]

[ QUOTE ]
I was watching animal planet yesterday and there was a piece on chimps being endangered and going extinct. I got to thinking and it seems like chimpanzees would make a great animal to domesticate, perhaps even better than the wolf. They are smart, can be toilet trained and bond with humans. Plus they could be trained to do all sorts of helpful things that dogs can't do while still providing security.

So why haven't humans ever set about domesticating the larger monkies? Putting aside the animal rights concerns doesn't this seem like a worth while endeavor?

[/ QUOTE ]
MIA for a month and this is all we get? No "How's it going?" or "I missed you guys" or "Astroglide sucks?" Not much of a triumphant return. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Welcome back, though.

[RunDownHouse]

You should read some of the established great minds in anthropology that mostly say Diamond is a quack with poorly-supported theories.

[Dominic]

I think, mostly because they are incredibly dangerous - ten times more dangerous than any pit bull could be. Any chimp could overpower any human. At any time.

Im sure if people made the effort over the next 1000 years chimps could be domesticated. Dogs weren't immediatly trained and safely living with humans. Domesticated dogs greatly helped humans bak inthe day, chim[ps would be more of a novelty now.

[MonkeeMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Dolphins are supposedly even smarter than chimps.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I saw a show on Animal Planet where they rated the top 10 animals by intelligence. The great apes family (does this includes chimps?) was #1, as it was the only one that demonstrated self-awareness.

And yes, cats were not on the list.

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]
When I saw this thread, I thought of that attack as well.

Mauled genitals. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/03/04/national/a135417S47.DTL)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes:

"Dr. Maureen Martin of Kern Medical Center told KGET-TV of Bakersfield that the monkeys chewed most of Davis' face off and that he would require extensive surgery in an attempt to reattach his nose. Chealander told The Bakersfield Californian that the chimps also tore off Davis' testicles and foot."

However:

"The Davises had waged an unsuccessful legal fight to bring Moe back to their West Covina home and visited him regularly at the sanctuary, where he had been living since October.

In 2000, after city prosecutors decided to drop charges against the Davises in Moe's 1999 attack, St. James Davis said Moe was not a threat to the public and attacked only when provoked.

"Animals bite, people bite, Mike Tyson bites. So what?" he said."

Sounds like he was just asking for it.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
You should read some of the established great minds in anthropology that mostly say Diamond is a quack with poorly-supported theories.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know who Jared is or much of anything about the field, but I understand it is one rife with politics and bitchy and sometimes earnest disagreement. Stephen Jay Gould for instance disagrees strongly with Richard Dawkins, and with a great many others too.

This really isn't all that rare in science.

[slickpoppa]

An old straight dope column:

link (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_001b.html)

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Cecil:

The other day I told some friends a story about how when I was 14 and living near Washington, D.C., I saw this 90-pound monkey at a carnival who could literally pick a grown man up and toss him out of a boxing ring. A crowd of people listened to a man (probably the trainer) dare anyone to stay three minutes in the ring with what appeared to be a large chimp. There was a fee to try your luck and a $100 reward if you stayed in the three minutes. Well, I'll tell you, I saw these big guys get in there with this monkey and get tossed right out. It seems the trainer had this whistle and whenever he felt inclined he would blow it, which was the signal for the chimp to do his thing. It was a delightful experience (to watch, at least). Anyway, I don't think my friends believed me. So you have to back me up, Cece: isn't it true that a 90-pound chimpanzee can throw a full-grown man through the air? --Tom M., Chicago

P.S.: Their great strength notwithstanding, is it possible to keep chimps as pets?

Dear Tom:

Chimpanzees look mighty cute trucking around on their roller skates, wearing funny hats, and going "ook, ook," but when roused they are vicious little bastards and not to be trifled with. Blessed with a muscle structure considerably superior to that of [censored] sapiens (if not nearly as fetching in a bathing suit), chimpanzees can handle almost anything that comes along. Three drunks at a carnival would be no sweat.

It's a lot easier to get a chimp in roller skates than it is to get him to pump iron--hence, most of the data on chimp strength is anecdotal and decidedly unscientific. In tests at the Bronx Zoo in 1924, a dynamometer--a scale that measures the mechanical force of a pull on a spring--was erected in the monkey house. A 165-pound male chimpanzee named "Boma" registered a pull of 847 pounds, using only his right hand (although he did have his feet braced against the wall, being somewhat hip, in his simian way, to the principles of leverage). A 165-pound man, by comparison, could manage a one-handed pull of about 210 pounds. Even more frightening, a female chimp, weighing a mere 135 pounds and going by the name of Suzette, checked in with a one-handed pull of 1,260 pounds. (She was in a fit of passion at the time; one shudders to think what her boyfriend must have looked like next morning.) In dead lifts, chimps have been known to manage weights of 600 pounds without even breaking into a sweat. A male gorilla could probably heft an 1,800-pound weight and not think twice about it.

As you might deduce, therefore, the word on keeping chimps as pets is a big negatory. Chimpanzees can never be fully domesticated; they're aggressive by nature and sooner or later they'll start to threaten their keepers in subtle ape ways that the untrained eye won't recognize, until one day--blammo.

But maybe you're thinking, I'll just keep the little beast until it starts to act tough, and then toss it back into the jungle. Wrong. A chimpanzee brought up in captivity won't be accepted by its brothers in the wild. Shunned, the citified chimp will either starve to death or be set upon by a simian hit squad. No matter how you look at it, keeping a chimp as a pet is dangerous and inhumane.

--CECIL ADAMS


[/ QUOTE ]

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
I remember seeing a video (David Attenborough I believe) in my HS biology class of how chimps hunt. They basically used team work to surround and herd a monkey. Then they all grabbed onto it, and 4 of 5 of them all pulled and came out with a different appendage each. It was gruesome. Not a nice animal to have around.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to show that series in my animal behavior course. That was one of the last ones I showed during the semester. People would walk out during that scene. It was brutal.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its species is dying because they suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be the single most stupid statement I have EVER seen on OOT. Congratulations, Sir.

Swede

[/ QUOTE ]

I second that.
And you're spot on with the intelligence isn't the only thing post.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Im sure if people made the effort over the next 1000 years chimps could be domesticated. Dogs weren't immediatly trained and safely living with humans. Domesticated dogs greatly helped humans bak inthe day, chim[ps would be more of a novelty now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wolves have been domesticated within the first and second generation, though. Very big difference.

The domestication isn't perfect, but it's solid and reliable pretty much from the start. Same with things like water buffalos, goats, ducks, etc., and I imagine most of our other species. If the pay-off isn't quick, there's no profit in it; you just have another mouth to feed. Which primitive peoples or overtaxed peasants just couldn't afford.

People can deal with something that is immediately or nearly immediately able to greatly adjust its ability to get along and be managed. But who wants to do a project that is 1000 years long before there's some unknown pay-off? Better to just chop 'em up and eat 'em.

[WhoIam]

[ QUOTE ]
[censored] sapiens


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
Funniest thing I've seen all day. I hope I don't get banned for saying "H*m* Erectus"

[DrSavage]

http://brad.touesnard.com/wp/wp-content/evil_monkey.gif

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's commonly believed in Africa that "bush meat" contributed to the spreading of Ebola.

A friend of mine worked on a pilot project training chimps to assist the disabled. It got scrapped mid way because of the animal's agression. Only very young ones were suitable. Once they became adults they were way too agressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way, did you hear the news? They finally found the natural reservoir for Ebola -- the animal that harbors it in the wild. Bats.

Sometimes at such incredibly low levels that certain DNA tests couldn't even find it when they were tested before. Confirmed now though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you see this?

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should read some of the established great minds in anthropology that mostly say Diamond is a quack with poorly-supported theories.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know who Jared is or much of anything about the field, but I understand it is one rife with politics and bitchy and sometimes earnest disagreement. Stephen Jay Gould for instance disagrees strongly with Richard Dawkins, and with a great many others too.

This really isn't all that rare in science.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, antrhopology is a mess. It's like high school.
And many scientists have a bad impression of "popularizer" scientists.
I like a lot of Diamond's stuff. I thought Guns, Germs, and Steel was a great read.

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]
I think, mostly because they are incredibly dangerous - ten times more dangerous than any pit bull could be. Any chimp could overpower any human. At any time.

[/ QUOTE ]

except for chuck norris.

http://www.shop4photos.net/graphics/251/25125.jpg

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's commonly believed in Africa that "bush meat" contributed to the spreading of Ebola.

A friend of mine worked on a pilot project training chimps to assist the disabled. It got scrapped mid way because of the animal's agression. Only very young ones were suitable. Once they became adults they were way too agressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way, did you hear the news? They finally found the natural reservoir for Ebola -- the animal that harbors it in the wild. Bats.

Sometimes at such incredibly low levels that certain DNA tests couldn't even find it when they were tested before. Confirmed now though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you see this?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was on a yahoo news link when I signed into Yahoo two or three days ago.

[haakee]

Maybe this (http://www.showmenews.com/2005/Mar/20050306News025.asp) is why not.