Borgata 10-20 hand

[B K]

Great game Tuesday night. There are two guys playing almost every hand before the flop - raised or not. One passive old guy who openly acknowledges that he has no skill and must go the river on every hand in order to win any pots. The other guy plays about 90% of his hands and gets way out of line with junk. There's a couple too-loose-too-aggressive regulars, a grumpy guy (GG) with an accent that plays pretty good (on my left) and two or three convention boys just learning the game... overall decent line-up. In the entire session - ne'er a chop was made for every pot was multiway.

After about 4 limpers, I limp in the cutoff with A/forums/images/icons/heart.gifJ/forums/images/icons/club.gif, but I hesitated with 4 chips in my hand before only calling. Button calls (GG) and the blinds play - it's about 8 handed:

A/forums/images/icons/club.gifA/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif8/forums/images/icons/spade.gif

Checked through me because GG always bets. He comes through, convention boy utg calls and i raise. Both call.

Turn is 9/forums/images/icons/club.gif

Convention boy checks, I bet and now GG raises. I put him on an ace and I know he puts me on an ace. I’m certain that he didn’t see my almost raise pre-flop. I think that he's either already full or maybe he doesn’t think my kicker is any good. Now convention boy UTG calls two cold. I called.

River is the 4/forums/images/icons/club.gif

Check, I check, GG bets, UTG calls. You're move? Thoughts on other streets welcome.

[PokerPrince]

Well you're certainly not folding I'll tell ya that. The flop checkraise is a nice move if you are quite sure he'll bet for you. I would have reraised the turn. By the way, I don't think there should be any doubt AJo is a limp after 4+ callers.

PokerPrince

[ActionBob]

'By the way, I don't think there should be any doubt AJo is a limp after 4+ callers.'

Plenty of doubt IMO. I'd raise here almost every time.

-ActionBob

[Diplomat]

"Plenty of doubt IMO. I'd raise here almost every time."

AJo is an extremely weak hand multi-way. If the line-up is even close to reasonable, AJo is a call at best. Mason and David talk about this sort of hand briefly in HPFAP on page 32-3:

"...except if there are many players, do not raise with unsuited high cards... For example, if you hold AQo and a lot of players are in the pot, it is probably best to just call."

I think part of the value of raising with big unsuited cards is that 1) you may be able to steal from a small number of players if you flop nothing but the flop is somewhat scary to your oponents and 2) you may flop nothing and still have the best hand against a small number of players.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but these two are enough for me. AJo is a weak unsuited ace in a multi-way pot. Don't fall in love with it just yet.

-Diplomat

[Dynasty]

That HEPFAP advice doesn't apply when your opponents are limping with garbage.

[Your Mom]

That HEPFAP advice doesn't apply when your opponents are limping with garbage.


Where does it say that?

[ActionBob]

Against several loose limpers it is a clear raise with a hand like AJ or AQ in late position. The statements that AQ or AJ dont play well against large fields is nonsense against several loose limpers. Against the described field in this game I'd probably be raising here with AT, KQ, and maybe KJ as well. Does it play "great" against the field? Maybe not, but it certainly plays better than the trash most loose players are limping with.

Most people who claim these hands dont play well against several players are probably just not playing them well after the flop.

-ActionBob

[Dynasty]

I don't recall HEPFAP explicitly saying that. That's a HEPFAP error.

[B K]

"Well you're certainly not folding I'll tell ya that."

I think folding certainly should have been considered, but maybe I'm being results oriented - I came in third. The better held the nuts with A9 and UTG rivered the flush with K/forums/images/icons/club.gif 8/forums/images/icons/club.gif

"I don't think there should be any doubt AJo is a limp after 4+ callers."

I agree; that's why I called, despite the chip stutter.

[Robk]

>I don't recall HEPFAP explicitly saying that.

"There is a bit of a two edged sword here. If you're playing against extremely terrible opponents, it's hard not to raise with pretty good hands because even though you're costing yourself money on the later streets, you're gaining so much before the flop because your hand is usually so much better than theirs. In other words, if people are coming in with absolutely everything, you have got to raise with an AQ simply because your hand is so much better on average than so many of the other players."