Second-guessing myself [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

View Full Version : Second-guessing myself

suited_ace

12-07-2005, 07:06 PM

There's nothing like a good 20BI drop to make you review your play. I'm gonna post a few hands that I'm unsure of to see if I'm that far off... (these are all from $11s, 9-tabling, so no reads).

1.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

BB (t1225)
UTG (t3130)
MP (t1370)
Hero (t1005)
SB (t1270)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG raises to t400, 1 fold, Hero raises to t1005 (All-In).

2.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

MP2 (t830)
MP3 (t540)
CO (t560)
Button (t1280)
SB (t1170)
Hero (t625)
UTG (t510)
UTG+1 (t905)
MP1 (t1580)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
4 folds, MP3 calls t100, 3 folds, Hero raises to t625 (All-In).

3.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

MP1 (t480)
MP2 (t1040)
MP3 (t710)
CO (t610)
Button (t835)
SB (t665)
BB (t2345)
Hero (t770)
UTG+1 (t545)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero calls t50, UTG+1 calls t50, 2 folds, MP3 calls t50, 3 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (t225) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB bets t50, Hero raises to t250, UTG+1 raises to t495 (All-In), MP3 raises to t660 (All-In), BB folds, Hero calls t410.

4.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG (t155)
MP1 (t1165)
MP2 (t1680)
CO (t1100)
Button (t1550)
Hero (t805)
BB (t1545)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, CO calls t100, 1 fold, Hero raises to t805 (All-In).

5.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

MP (t1810)
Button (t1915)
Hero (t725)
BB (t3120)
UTG (t430)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, MP calls t150, 1 fold, Hero raises to t725 (All-In).

6.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

SB (t1310)
BB (t785)
UTG (t740)
UTG+1 (t645)
UTG+2 (t475)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t785)
Hero (t790)
CO (t775)
Button (t895)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t15, UTG+2 raises to t30, 2 folds, Hero raises to t100, 2 folds, SB raises to t170, 1 fold, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to t475 (All-In), Hero raises to t790 (All-In).

(I guess this is my little hall of shame)

UMTerp

12-07-2005, 07:21 PM

1. Standard. A stop and go could be argued, but you may even have more fold equity preflop. You're certainly playing the hand.

2. Good unless the limper is a known good/tricky player.

3. I like limping JJ preflop early, but I think you have to raise it when the blinds are this size. Flop play is fine - if you had a healthier stack, a fold could be argued. This is actually an interesting hand all the way through - probably worthy of it's own thread.

4. Good.

5. Same as #4. Note these pushes are only good because of your stack size. Any bigger stack and you could complete or fold, and any smaller and you lose all fold equity (though a push may be fine anyway in that case).

6. The SB min-re-raise is troublesome here, and if you are ever going to find a fold preflop in a $10 it might be in this type of case, but if you start looking for reasons to fold QQ at a full table at the lower limits, you'll get yourself into some trouble.

At best, your play is very solid, at worst, it's fine. If you're playing subomptimally, it's not because of the hands you posted. Most likely just a bad run.

psyduck

12-07-2005, 07:23 PM

I concur with UMTerp.

playtitleist

12-07-2005, 07:34 PM

1) Standard

2) The 5h sucks here, you are probably behind or coin flip with most hands MP3 limps with and he is very likely to call your push. I can check.

3) That's how I play it, but I am seeing a bunch of posters raising pre-flop here - playing QQ and JJ the same way.

4) Standard

5) Standard

6) At the $11s you could be facing ANYTHING here. I roll off a "bring it!" when I push this.

Irieguy

12-07-2005, 07:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
9-tabling, so no reads...

Big Blind is t200 (5 handed)...
Big Blind is t100 (9 handed)...
Big Blind is t50 (9 handed)...
Big Blind is t100 (7 handed)...
Big Blind is t150 (5 handed)...

[/ QUOTE ]

Multi-tabling does not implicitly mean that you can't have reads. In fact, getting to this stage in a SNG and having no idea at all how your opponents play will make it difficult to beat even the $11's at any significant rate.

You are certainly playing too many tables.

Irieguy

UMTerp

12-07-2005, 07:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
getting to this stage in a SNG and having no idea at all how your opponents play will make it difficult to beat even the $11's at any significant rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with that statement, because your average $11 player is ridiculously bad. It is certainly possible to beat them at a significant rate absent reads of any kind as long as your bubble skills are solid.

However, I will agree that 9-tabling $11's shouldn't be high on any aspiring player's to do list. Get your skill set up to a higher level, then add in tables if you can.

The only ways I can see 9-tabling $11's as a good exercise is if your "normal" game is higher and you are simply working on multitabling skills, or if you are in the midst of some type of bankroll recovery exercise.

Bill Poker

12-07-2005, 07:44 PM

It is interesting to see what is the range for the limpers. if 2 cards worth limping at this level, they should be raised, especially in the late positions. QJ+/44+?

[ QUOTE ]

4. Good.

5. Same as #4. Note these pushes are only good because of your stack size. Any bigger stack and you could complete or fold, and any smaller and you lose all fold equity (though a push may be fine anyway in that case).

[/ QUOTE ]

UMTerp

12-07-2005, 07:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It is interesting to see what is the range for the limpers... QJ+/44+?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to put an upper limit on typical limpers' ranges too.

And since hands like A5 and A7 may only be slighly better (or even worse) than 50-50 against typical limpers' ranges, most of your edge from pushing these hands comes from the times the limpers fold.

bones

12-07-2005, 07:49 PM

I'll echo what Irie and Terp said. If the 11s are your regular game, there's no way in hell you should be 9 tabling them. That is the surest way to stunt your development as a player. You should be focusing on improving your own game and having some understanding of how your opponents play.

Irieguy

12-07-2005, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
getting to this stage in a SNG and having no idea at all how your opponents play will make it difficult to beat even the $11's at any significant rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with that statement, because your average $11 player is ridiculously bad. It is certainly possible to beat them at a significant rate absent reads of any kind as long as your bubble skills are solid.

However, I will agree that 9-tabling $11's shouldn't be high on any aspiring player's to do list. Get your skill set up to a higher level, then add in tables if you can.

The only ways I can see 9-tabling $11's as a good exercise is if your "normal" game is higher and you are simply working on multitabling skills, or if you are in the midst of some type of bankroll recovery exercise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps we just have a different number in mind when using the term "significant rate."

But there's no way you can have a 20% ROI without considering your opponents and their tendancies to any degree at all.

In fact, I would say that you see the widest range in terms of player tendancies at the lower limits. You will have some "pros," some rocks, many donks, and even some people who are just drunk and open pushing whenever they feel like it. You really need to know who you are up against.

Irieguy

mackthefork

12-07-2005, 07:59 PM

1) I do the same, we might go broke but 99 is too good to fold with 5BB imo.

2) I do not like this one, I think you are up against a better ace or a small pair far too often for it to be good, and he will basically always call.

3) I raise the JJ preflop, looks like you got an ugly flop that made someone a good hand and you couldn't get away from the jacks. I suspect I'm away from accepted 2+2 strategy though.

4) Marginal, neither great or bad.

5) I think this is fine.

6) This guy min-raised twice, I can guaranteed he had AA, I call the raise to 170 (given the option) and fold without hittting a Q.

Regards Mack

suited_ace

12-07-2005, 08:25 PM

Well, I can't say I have no reads at all, but you might have a point. Now the question is: should I keep 9-tabling until I get used to it or move down to 6?

I went through a LOT of HHs today. There are a few hands I don't like, but nothing awful (one hand on tilt set aside). There's a LOT of bad luck too. Since 9-tabling is new to me, it's hard to know exactly what's causing the bad run.

suited_ace

12-07-2005, 08:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The only ways I can see 9-tabling $11's as a good exercise is if your "normal" game is higher and you are simply working on multitabling skills, or if you are in the midst of some type of bankroll recovery exercise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo.