Poker pro w/ most business savvy [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

kenberman

12-07-2005, 06:57 PM

Sexton kinda lucked out into his success. Although, I guess he's good at what he does (good being = what Joe 6 Pack likes).

Howard Lederer recently became the first pro to sign a non-poker deal, endorsing Knob Creek.

I think Mr. David Sklansky and Mr. Mason Malmuth sell a lot of books, making them some pretty good dough. How much, I dunno.

Negreanu's first online site sponsorship failed miserably; we'll see how his new site goes. My guess is that it will do well, b/c he is good on camera and fanboys love him.

I would say the leaders are the guys with significant equity shares in Full Tilt. Ivey/Ferguson/Harmon etc. Again, I don't know what shares they have, but I think these will end up being worth a pile of dough.

Marcel Luske has a ton of side deals, but I can't speak to the success of any of them.

Bottom line: I think shares in online poker sites will ultimately prove to be the most lucrative non-playing deals for these guys.

12-07-2005, 07:04 PM

Quick response and most obvious are Negreanu and Hellmuth. Who knows how much some of the others really make when it all comes down to it. Any clue what Lee Jones makes from Stars? I always wondered about that...it's got to be one of the best jobs in poker.

lapoker17

12-07-2005, 07:11 PM

It seems you are talking in the area of "making themselves marketable" and the like, but Todd Brunson has proven to be a good investor. Phil Laak has varied outside interests as well - He once told me he is a slum-lord.

Ulysses

12-07-2005, 07:14 PM

BB, ET: Sexton/Jones would not qualify based on what I am thinking of here. I am thinking of guys who continue to present themselves, image-wise, as being professional poker players as their main livelihood.

astro: Jerry Buss and many other businesspeople who play poker, but I'm not talking about those guys. Also, there are some like Bobby Baldwin who were poker players who then moved into big business. But I'm talking about guys who market/present themselves as "pro poker players" and take advantage of that in other business ways.

KB4: Yes, equity in a successful online poker site is pure gold.

ggbman

12-07-2005, 07:15 PM

I would tend to agree. While i respect the accomplishments that both of these players have both inside and outside the poker world, i always find it comical when they houst over who is the "hardest working man in poker" If i could endorse some BS products or get paid stupid sums to do guest appearances, i would do it in a heartbeat. Both these guys are obviously extremely intelligent, although i wouldn't give the "hardest working" title to either of them.

Ulysses

12-07-2005, 07:15 PM

la,

Those definitely qualify and are largely what I am curious about - which poker pros are really smart at making tons of money, either leveraging their marketabilty or their bankrolls.

Voltron87

12-07-2005, 07:18 PM

its pretty hard to tell without knowing how much the players are earning from non-poker activities, or without knowing the fine text and that stuff. negreanu could be very high profile, very popular, and thought of as the top dog but maybe he is botching his negotiations and not taking full advantage of his position. for all i know he could be using his name very inefficiently, i have no reason to say that but its pretty obvious that in a lot of ways he is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

astroglide

12-07-2005, 07:19 PM

gus hansen has basically flopped with pokerchamps right?

ggbman

12-07-2005, 07:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
la,

Those definitely qualify and are largely what I am curious about - which poker pros are really smart at making tons of money, either leveraging their marketabilty or their bankrolls.

[/ QUOTE ]

While i have no real support, i have always heard that Ted Forrest wsa pretty investment savvy and has funneled plantly of money out of poker into other venues. Also, no one has mentioned Dan Harrington, who i believe took his WSOP winnings to help fund a very sucessful busniess, but he could have had that prior his win, i'm not sure.

kenberman

12-07-2005, 07:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
gus hansen has basically flopped with pokerchamps right?

[/ QUOTE ]

they were recently bought out by Betfair

Ulysses

12-07-2005, 07:22 PM

Voltron,

"but its pretty obvious that in a lot of ways he is not the sharpest tool in the shed."

What kind of stuff are you referring to?

Voltron87

12-07-2005, 07:24 PM

unrelated, i just googled "knob creek" and the results i got, in order, were

Knob Creek® Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey, 50% Alc/Vol.

Welcome To Knob Creek Gun Range! (www.machinegunshoot.com)

Knob Creek Shoot.com- Machine guns from all over the world, night tracer fire,and flame throwers.

Knob Creek Farm Where Abraham Lincoln Lived

Knob Creek Quarter Horses- Hunter Under Saddle and All-Around prospects by Luke At Me, Art I Sweet, Blazing Hot. Home to Emma Luke, We Be Blazin, ...

Knob Creek Farms Border Collies

Welcome to Knob Creek
Knob Creek Enterprises provides consulting, project management, and training services and contractors for all kinds of Information Technology customers.

I took a look at the shooting range one (www.machinegunshoot.com), go to the photo gallery. v funny.

colgin

12-07-2005, 07:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is specifically regarding people who are primarily known for being poker professionals.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you include Phil Gordon in that category (which I acknowledge is highly debatable), I think he would give Phil H. and Daniel a run for their money just viz a viz poker enterprises. If you look at his past busness success, I suspect that he has more overall business savvy than either Hellmuth or Negreanu.

La Brujita

12-07-2005, 07:32 PM

Sam Grizzle?

Just kidding, just a shout out for Barry G. He has done a fair share with charities, and while I don't know if it fits your definition, certainly worth a mention.

12-07-2005, 07:32 PM

I think its this guy
http://www.headsuppokerchampions.com/PIC%20TJ%20CLOUTIER.jpg

Voltron87

12-07-2005, 07:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Voltron,

"but its pretty obvious that in a lot of ways he is not the sharpest tool in the shed."

What kind of stuff are you referring to?

[/ QUOTE ]

from reading his blog, from the stuff hes written about religion, and from the way i see him argue online with other people. i probably shouldnt have said "pretty obviously", but i did qualify it by saying "in a lot of ways". in a lot ways hes pretty obviously a really smart person and very successful poker player. i dunno, that bit is just my opinion and is wishy washy. but the first bit of the post stands. i was just using daniel as an example for my point, i dont have any reason to think hes a business donk or something like that.

Voltron87

12-07-2005, 07:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is specifically regarding people who are primarily known for being poker professionals.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you include Phil Gordon in that category (which I acknowledge is highly debatable), I think he would give Phil H. and Daniel a run for their money just viz a viz poker enterprises. If you look at his past busness success, I suspect that he has more overall business savvy than either Hellmuth or Negreanu.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think diablo is referring to "guys who start out playing poker for a living and have business successes" not people who are businessmen and semi rich first. but i could be wrong.

Schneids

12-07-2005, 07:36 PM

DUSTIN WOOLF, JUST YOU WAIT AND SEE

12-07-2005, 07:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
DUSTIN WOOLF, JUST YOU WAIT AND SEE

[/ QUOTE ]
Imo he will go broke playing 500/1000 vs lagerborg before he starts any business.

colgin

12-07-2005, 07:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is specifically regarding people who are primarily known for being poker professionals.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you include Phil Gordon in that category (which I acknowledge is highly debatable), I think he would give Phil H. and Daniel a run for their money just viz a viz poker enterprises. If you look at his past busness success, I suspect that he has more overall business savvy than either Hellmuth or Negreanu.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think diablo is referring to "guys who start out playing poker for a living and have business successes" not people who are businessmen and semi rich first. but i could be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is probably what he meant (which is why I noted that includign Phil G. is debtable). But given his public persona as a poker star, I think he is much more in the category of Phil H. and Daniel N. than someone like Jerry Buss, for example.

I'll let Diablo make a ruling on this one.

Ulysses

12-07-2005, 07:42 PM

Schneids: I do not know if you are joking or not, but it would not surprise me one bit given what he's already got rolling w/ nwp.com.

colgin: I'm not sure whether I'd include Phil Gordon or not since he already had money, but he's clearly done an impressive job at crafting himself into a poker celebrity.

astroglide

12-07-2005, 07:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
DUSTIN WOOLF, JUST YOU WAIT AND SEE

[/ QUOTE ]

awesome

Schneids

12-07-2005, 07:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Schneids: I do not know if you are joking or not, but it would not surprise me one bit given what he's already got rolling w/ nwp.com.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both. It was comedic and truthful.
[ QUOTE ]

colgin: I'm not sure whether I'd include Phil Gordon or not since he already had money, but he's clearly done an impressive job at crafting himself into a poker celebrity.

[/ QUOTE ]

In Gordon's mind he's already the biggest poker celebrity out there.

callydrias

12-07-2005, 07:51 PM

<-- /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Noo Yawk

12-07-2005, 07:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a tossup between Daniel Negreanu and Phil Hellmuth, with Daniel having the slight edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually give Phil the edge here. he's promoted himself as the greatest player ever, and has gone along with the poker brat image without ever breking character. He's done this for several years prior to the poker boom, and was way ahead of everyone when it hit. Daniel's done a great job, and is a tireless worker, but Phil did it before the exposure was easy to get.

Randy_Refeld

12-07-2005, 08:46 PM

I am going to throw Roy Cooke and Linda Johnson out there (although I don't know if Linda Johnson ever lived off of poker income alone).

Matt Flynn

12-07-2005, 10:25 PM

anyone with success in multiple business areas? a lot of these guys gamble in business as in cards, and some have to hit.

fnord_too

12-07-2005, 11:09 PM

Off the top of my head, Dan Harrington (though you get into the old argument of whether someone who makes the bulk of their money outside poker is a pro, as I believe though am not positive Dan does).

I think the two you mention, and many others that will leap to the top of conversation, are good at marketing themselves and getting endorsements. Though I certainly understand the importance of marketing in business, I tend to rate management and financial skills higher (and the quant side of marketing as opposed to the sales/PR side). Negreanu may well have more on the ball here than I am aware of, since I don't really follow him very much.

Given that, I would not rate Hellmuth anywhere near the top. I don't think he really understands a lot of sophisticated business concepts. Also, it utterly amazes me how someone can be so risk averse in tournaments (to the point of making horrible "business" decisions) yet so risk embracing with regard to staking people.

Edit - just read your reply where you say you are really looking for people who market themselves well, so my post is pretty off your topic, but I ain't deleting it!

coffeecrazy1

12-08-2005, 12:08 AM

All these responses, and no nods for Amarillo Slim, who, until the whole molesting-his-own-granddaughter thing, was essentially the Hulk Hogan of poker. He was a famous poker player when there were no famous poker players(though probably more for his prop betting).

shaniac

12-08-2005, 12:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
All these responses, and no nods for Amarillo Slim, who, until the whole molesting-his-own-granddaughter thing, was essentially the Hulk Hogan of poker. He was a famous poker player when there were no famous poker players(though probably more for his prop betting).

[/ QUOTE ]

If we are talking about people who did the least to earn the most fame, Slim gets the nod. Beyond that, I doubt whatever fame and success he acquired by marketting his own image can even compare to the others mentioned in this thread. We can give him the honorary tilte: Godfather of Poker Self-Promotion if you like.

Too bad Diablo excluded Bobby Baldwin from the discussion because that dude is a hero.

Malachii

12-08-2005, 06:18 AM

Your new avatar is freaking awesome.

Aquarian

12-08-2005, 06:42 AM

Lyle Berman

Aq.

MarkD

12-08-2005, 11:46 AM

I get the impression that Ray Zee was able to take his professional poker playing into investment areas that have been very lucrative.

Riverman

12-08-2005, 12:18 PM

I don't think anyone has mentioned Lyle Berman yet. That guy is loaded.

Cancuk

12-08-2005, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone has mentioned Lyle Berman yet. That guy is loaded.

[/ QUOTE ]

lyle berman isn't a pro and didn't make his money playing poker.

charlie_t_jr

12-08-2005, 03:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]

KB4: Yes, equity in a successful online poker site is pure gold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well between his book and Pokerstars, would I dare say...gulp...Lee Jones.

dstyle

12-08-2005, 04:02 PM

surprised that no one has mentioned Juanda or Chan. Juanda got an MBA and supposedly parlayed his early 90's big cash game victories into lots of successful investments insuring he'll never go broke.
Same thing for Chan--investments in businesses, real estate, etc.
Greenstein seems to invest his money well also--real estate

basically, while many of the "top name pros" consistently go broke, these pros have joined the top of the economic bracket through good poker skills and successful investing, and not playing way out of their limits that they can manage financially

Harrington has similar financial/business skills also

if anything, their biggest weakness (and other successful pros) is staking losing players who are their friends

in relation to strictly poker-promotion to the general public and takign advantage of easy opportunities, it's easily Danny N and Hellmuth first, then Lederer (with his commentating, dvds, shows, knob creek, etc.), Esfandieri (or maybe he just hypes himself up)

12-08-2005, 06:00 PM

As self-marketing goes, it's a toss-up between Hellmuth, Negreanu and Annie Duke (I'm very surprised she hasn't been mentioned)with honorable mention to Phil Gordon, who's turned zero bracelets into multiple books and one sweet TV gig.

Riverman

12-08-2005, 06:13 PM

I can't believe anyone mentioned Greenstein. His money management is admittedly horrendus- he went broke not too long ago playing chinese poker against Ted Forrest and his girlfriend. Also, his book could have been written in a way that would have sold way more copies i.e. more strategy. Finally, he has not aggressively attempted to capitalize on the boom away from the tables in any way (except his book, which I don't think was written to make a boatload of cash).

BradleyT

12-09-2005, 02:26 AM

Ulysses,

I'd have to say Annie Duke or Jennifer Harmon.

MyTurn2Raise

12-09-2005, 04:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I am going to throw Roy Cooke and Linda Johnson out there (although I don't know if Linda Johnson ever lived off of poker income alone).

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah...isn't Linda Johnson affiliated with the card player cruises sign-ups for party poker; nice affiliate gig that must be printing money

djack

12-09-2005, 05:35 AM

hahaha.

you, sir, are a donkey. congratulations.

mother_brain

12-09-2005, 05:54 AM

Greg Raymer should get an honorable mention.
His skills and honest personality mean that he is going to have staying power as long as he is in the game.

When you boil it down honesty and straightfowardness are what people really want in a salesperson. George Foreman would be similar.

Just kissing ass. But I don't think he will wear out like Hellmuth and The Mouth might.

amulet

12-10-2005, 01:35 AM

Danny H and Bill B both posses tremendous business acumen. then there are the people who created other business prior to becoming pros, but i assume they don't count? examples of these are, lyle b, paul phillips, even phil gordon is surprising when you talk outside businesses. there are many others.

TStoneMBD

12-10-2005, 02:40 AM

i think a better summary of what youre looking for is poker player who has done an excellent job of promoting their name. people are listing people who dont fall into this category.

phil gordon has done an ok job i suppose but its only because hes on celebrity poker showdown. hes pretty much an idiot imo.

noone comes close to hellmuth or negreanu, but i think hellmuth takes it by a pretty wide slandslide. he just has a distinguished and recognizeable image. daniel has done a great job because he is such a likeable guy and his wpt success certainly is helpful. i think daniel is getting more endorsements than phil is as of late which is probably the logical choice because daniel still has alot of room for image growth whereas phil really doesnt. daniel is a much better poker player and should outperform phil in the future even considering that phil stands to play more events. phil at least always has his wsop rings and wsop air time to fall back on. if daniel goes on a cold run of cards hell just become another gus hansen.

honorable mentions would have to go to mike matusow, gus hansen and chris ferguson. im sure matusow will have plenty of sponsorship deals in the future. he just has too much personality and household name going for him.

phil ivey has an insanely marketable name but he chooses not to cash in on it. you can also give mention to doyle brunson who has built extreme fame for himself. you might say thats only because of his success in the big games, but look at chip reese. his fame level is not anywhere near doyle's. doyle's name has sold books and he has his own internet poker room.

not sure if this is true or not, but doyle's name might have been the driving force in why mike caro has made so much money from poker... another guy whos done an excellent job in sustaining his name 10 years ago. his name is pretty much putty right now.

dont forget about dutch boyd. his name collapsed because he dropped off the poker planet but he had a real big run at making a huge name for himself with insane amounts of endorsements and such.

david williams has alot of potential if he has continued success and becomes a regular on the circuit.

cwsiggy

12-10-2005, 02:45 AM

Howard Lederer will probably make more from Full Tilt this year than "most" top pros make in all cash games and tourney winnings combined. (He is President of Tiltware)

dibbs

12-10-2005, 04:14 AM

I'd say DN although the mishap with Pokermountain didn't seem like the wisest thing to do, maybe it couldnt be helped.

Was always curious why he didn't go with FTP, as they really seem to be getting their name out (which he loves) and it just seems like he fits in with that crowd, dunno if they wouldnt have paid him enough or theres something else to it. Should be interesting to see how his Pokerroom skin works out.

Havent read his blog in a long while, but it seems like he made the transition from poker player to business man under the guise of a poker player along time ago.

Not to say he cant play some cards, however.

Ulysses

12-10-2005, 04:22 AM

Tstone,

No, that summary is not at all what I was asking.

kenberman

12-10-2005, 01:55 PM

TStone,
Creating a marketable name is only one aspect of having business savvy. Business savvy being what separates corporate execs, succesfull entrepreneurs, and savvy investors from the rest of the population: the ability to recognize and create value. Negreanu might be the most 'famous' poker player known to the masses, but if all his business deals (poker sites, merchandise, real estate, whatever) dont end up making him any money, he hasn't shown any business savvy at all.

TStoneMBD

12-10-2005, 02:31 PM

the reason why i went out of my way to summarize el diablo's original thread to ability to create a marketable name is because going strictly by business savvy, daniel negreanu and phil hellmuth are nowhere near the most business savvy poker players and its not even close imo. the poker players who have the most business savvy are likely to be the ones that you wouldn't expect it from. daniel negreanu and phil hellmuth are just famous people who market their name. besides that they havent shown a propensity to know anything about business whatsoever.

turnipmonster

12-10-2005, 03:22 PM

phil gordon is definitely positively really not an idiot.

TStoneMBD

12-10-2005, 08:21 PM

well maybe i shouldnt insult phil gordon like that but its based on some things:

1) he thinks hes the most famous poker player.

2) he told the rich guy blowing money in the 400/800 game in eugeneel's thread that what hes doing with his money is disgusting.

3) hes very boring on camera.

4) he thinks hes much better at poker than he is.

to his credit hes of course very business savvy but i wouldnt consider him to be good at marketing his name. i think his current fame is based on the fact that he landed celebrity poker showdown which should never have happened imo.

amulet

12-11-2005, 01:18 AM

i don't dislike phil, but i agree with some of what you wrote. the reason he is on celebrity poker is because many people in the tv business (and his agents) feel phil comes off as a very likeable guy (and with a sense of humor) on camera. he has several projects in development, because execs in the industry like the way he comes across.
while the little green book was very basic, i thought it was surprisingly well presents - very clearly written compared to many poker books.

TStoneMBD

12-11-2005, 04:04 AM

i actually read phil's poker book before when i was in b&n one day. it was pretty entertaining.

broken_downstem

12-11-2005, 07:52 AM

Im suprised no one is really talking about Chris Ferguson. It seems like he is in almost every poker commercial or poker spot on tv. How many times has he had a segment throwing cards at produce, etc? All that air time means that he probably pulls down a decent amount for each commercial he does. Hellmuth and Negraneau don't have their face in enough ads to really be making the most.

turnipmonster

12-11-2005, 03:32 PM

my comments were based on him graduating hs at like 15, college at 20 (engineering) and being super rich by his mid twenties.

your comments about his poker skill may be right (I have no idea), but it's pretty unlikely the guy is an idiot. lucky, maybe, idiot, doubtful.

--turnipmonster

astroglide

12-11-2005, 04:38 PM

what big endorsements did boyd have?

TStoneMBD

12-11-2005, 04:58 PM

namely pokerspot, but i think he had some other small time endorsements like clothes and such.

KaneKungFu123

12-11-2005, 05:07 PM

How much does phil hellmuth make from endorsements and his name?

astroglide

12-11-2005, 05:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
namely pokerspot, but i think he had some other small time endorsements like clothes and such.

[/ QUOTE ]

pokerspot was his own company, and it crashed and burned well before he appeared on espn. all press on it has been gigantically negative because it resulted in many players that were owed thousands of dollars.

he has blogged about playing like 1/2 holdem in recent times and went to ebay to try to drum up pieces of himself so that he could afford to play in tournaments.

TStoneMBD

12-11-2005, 06:30 PM

thanks for the history lesson but im aware of all this.

dutch boyd claimed to have not been the owner of pokerspot. iirc he said that the actual owner was the one to walk off with all the money and dutch boyd was stuck with the liability and hate.

there was a period in time in which dutch boyd was very famous in the poker world and had an excellent name to market. he did a very good job of self-promotion at the time.

[ QUOTE ]
dont forget about dutch boyd. his name collapsed because he dropped off the poker planet but he had a real big run at making a huge name for himself with insane amounts of endorsements and such.

[/ QUOTE ]

i also appreciate your explanation of how dutch boyd is currently doing in life. notice in my quote that i never said dutch boyd had endorsements or that he even had a big name. i said he made a run for making a huge name for himself implying that if he succeeded he would have had endorsements. i also mentioned that his name collapsed because he dropped off the poker planet.