($109) Bubble with micro stack - I feel like such a donk

[tigerite]

But is there really any other way to play this? Meh.

PartyPoker - NL Texas Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee Tournament | Level: 6 - 4 players (Converter: PGC (http://client.pokergrader.com))

BB is N/A

Chip Counts:
Button: 1560 Chips
<font color="red">Hero: 3435 Chips</font>
BB: 4480 Chips
UTG: 525 Chips

Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Blinds are 100/200

PreFlop
<font color="blue">UTG folds</font>, <font color="blue">Button folds</font>
<font color="red">Hero RAISES ($400)</font>, <font color="red">BB RAISES ($600)</font>
<font color="green">Hero Calls</font>

(2 players) FLOP: T/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif ( Pot Size: 1600 Chips )
Hero is All-In, <font color="green">BB Calls</font>

(2 players) TURN: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif ( Pot Size: 6870 Chips )


(2 players) RIVER: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ( Pot Size: 6870 Chips )


Final Pot:6870 Chips

[bestcellar]

not really

[Paul Thomson]

I respect your thoughts and posts. I really appreciate that you take the time to answer everyones post. This is something Curtains said in an annotated hand history that I posted a few weeks back.

" I think you have two choices with one being slightly better than the other. You either go all-in on the flop, putting your opponent in a difficult place or you check-raise-all-in unless your opponents bet makes them pot committed. I think the check raise all in is slightly better.

The problem with the all-in is that it doesn’t give your opponent to make a mistake. A check allows him to take a stab at the pot. The only time that checking costs you is if your opponent bluffs all-in, but I think this is unlikely. On the other hand, if you check and your opponent bets all-in or half his stack, then I would fold. But if your opponent makes a continuation bet, then I would reraise him all-in. This way if your opponent has nothing then you pick up some extra chips but if he has something then you are given the correct odds to win the hand. "

laters.

[tigerite]

Yes, that hand went through my head at the time of this too, but the difference here is the pot is much bigger compared to my stack - it almost is equal to my stack in fact - whereas in the other one, the pot was only 675 and Hero's stack was 1100 odd, almost double. Plus, he had me covered, rather than vice versa.

By the way I think all-in does let my opponent make a mistake but sadly not this one, he called his QQ anyway.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I respect your thoughts and posts. I really appreciate that you take the time to answer everyones post. This is something Curtains said in an annotated hand history that I posted a few weeks back.

" I think you have two choices with one being slightly better than the other. You either go all-in on the flop, putting your opponent in a difficult place or you check-raise-all-in unless your opponents bet makes them pot committed. I think the check raise all in is slightly better.

The problem with the all-in is that it doesn’t give your opponent to make a mistake. A check allows him to take a stab at the pot. The only time that checking costs you is if your opponent bluffs all-in, but I think this is unlikely. On the other hand, if you check and your opponent bets all-in or half his stack, then I would fold. But if your opponent makes a continuation bet, then I would reraise him all-in. This way if your opponent has nothing then you pick up some extra chips but if he has something then you are given the correct odds to win the hand. "

laters.

[/ QUOTE ]

The hand itself is not the problem here. If this were 4 way with everyone at 2500 each then, ok, maybe. What is donkish about the way he played the hand was getting this deeply involved on the bubble with the only guy that covers him, when he has a huge stack and someone else else has a tiny stack.

bad play....awful


Edit: Just wanted to add that when someone asks "was this push ok?" 20 posters and there mothers come up with exact EV calcs within the first 5 minutes, but Tigerite, you should see that this essentially the same thing...you led yourself down a series of steps that were, from their inception, -EV to begin with.

This BTW leads to a seperate post perhaps, but some interesting things come to mind about vying for bigstack status on the bubble and what that gains you and what the risk is in getting it.

[junkmail3]

Wow, you are a donk!

I'd probably raise this preflop like you did and fold to the reriase.

It may look somewhat weak to the reraiser (if he was just pushing his stack around), but the shortie is too short really. He'll be gone too soon, and your stack will still be very playable ITM. Even if he survives this orbit, he's dead soon. And if he doubles up, then - play some more

i might lay this down pf given that micro-stack is BB next hand...

[bigt439]

Problem with this hand is absent of a read his min reraise is likely a huge hand here. I think calling the pf raise is reasonable but not mandatory. You're oop so you're going to have a tough time playing a small pot whether behind or ahead. The only reason I might call is because he'll probably play TT - KK pretty slow if an A flops letting you get a cheap showdown, but I think this might be pushing it. A flush draw isn't great because you don't want to get it in flipping and he's likely calling so much because his range is likely so strong. I might fold to the reraise pf not because you're not getting odds, but because you're in an awful situation. On the flop I would try and see a turn as cheaply as possible, but would have no problem check folding to a pot bet. The bubble dynamics affect this hand so much; I think to the point of making the optimal line look incredibly different from the optimal line here 6-handed or even 4-handed with relative stack parity. I understand why you overplayed this hand, but that is what I think you did. Unfortunately the biggie's got you by the balls here and there's not much you can do IMO.

[Shillx]

If the guy is good, I'm going to the felt preflop, and I'm going to it with a lot of hands. Raising to some small amount will just get re-pushed and all you do is throw away that T400 or whatever since you can't call an all-in reraise.

If the guy is bad and will call a lot, I would just fold preflop.

[Melchiades]

I check fold any decent sized flop bet, while puking. Probably just complete preflop as well. Don't wanna play a big pot OOP with BB at all.

[tigerite]

He was good, yeah, I think I should have just folded pf after all. Just didn't want to give the wrong message, and then on the flop I saw K high, thought maybe I could move him off a lower pair, or AQ, and obviously the nut flush draw. Now I think about it, the push was retarded. Oh well. I'll be sure not to do it again in this situation that's for sure.

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
If the guy is good, I'm going to the felt, and I'm going to it with a lot of hands. Raising to some small amount will just get re-pushed and all you do is throw away that T400 or whatever since you can't call an all-in reraise.

If the guy is bad and will call a lot, I would just fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have too much to lose trying to push-steal from the BB here (regardless of opponent) - just wait an orbit or two.

You don't need to put your game on the line for 300 chips.

And pushing at that! I like to take the pot with good hands, but going to the felt with questionable hands when the BB will be out in two orbits?!

And even if he doubles up you still have a very nice position to still 'play for first'.

[z32fanatic]

I would probably complete preflop just because the BB is the big stack. When/if he raised I would fold. Given this flop I would push like you did.

I'm probably wrong, but I think this is push/fold preflop against a good 109 big stack. I think it's folding &gt; pushing &gt; minibetting &gt; standard raising.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm probably wrong, but I think this is push/fold preflop against a good 109 big stack. I think it's folding &gt; pushing &gt; minibetting &gt; standard raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? You have over 16 bb's. You are definitely wrong.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably complete preflop just because the BB is the big stack. When/if he raised I would fold. Given this flop I would push like you did.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't go that far. You still have a lot of chips and he shouldn't be looking to play pots with you. Most big stacks suck at manipulating it anyways so I'm raising here every time. This hand only becomes gross when he reraises and tells us he's willing to play a big pot.

[pineapple888]

Wow, all kinds of responses in this thread.

The overwhelming rule in this situation, as some others have mentioned, is not to get into a pissing contest with the other big stack when you have a marginal hand.

Folding &gt; Completing &gt; Raising &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pissing contest

[microbet]

You musn't go broke here. Think if he pushed and you were calling. This is one of those AA, maybe KK spots because you need to have like an 75% chance of winning. That's not the situation, but you still need an extremely large chance of winning. He made a scary raise preflop and could easily have trips or an overpair and he has you covered by enough that he will still likely be ITM if he calls and loses.

I'm torn though between checking and only calling reasonable bets or leading out with about 1000 with the possibility of a tragic laydown, but with 2nd or 3rd place still most likely. I'll sorta cop out and say it depends on whether I think he is so aggressive he will pwn most any bet I make.

Curtains' hand mentioned later is a lot different as it isn't on the bubble and he has about twice the stack of villian, but I don't see how getting villain to fold there when you are on a draw doesn't count as allowing him to make a mistake. Not that the check/raise isn't better. link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=3987617)