Raise for a free showdown? ($10/20 5 handed, A3s blind steal)

[TheMetetron]

I normally think plays like this are dumb, but I can't think of a better line for a host of reasons. I plan to see if I can make more plays like this in the future.

FWIW, I was folding to a turn 3-bet. On the river I fold if the flush completes and he donks. Probably call otherwise unless it's like a Q or something. If he checks, I was checking behind without further improvement.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>...

[TStoneMBD]

its a good card to bluff at for sure. really depends on who youre playing against. raising for a free showdown is much better than calling down here against alot of opponents specifically passive ones that can fold hands.

[TheMetetron]

Assume unknown Party 10/20er, that's all I had to work with.

[ArturiusX]

I think I like, folding J7 and the like is very hot.

We folding to a 3-bet?

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I like, folding J7 and the like is very hot.

We folding to a 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I was folding to a turn 3-bet

[/ QUOTE ]

[Chobohoya]

All I can say is that against an unknown I can't see calling any donked river cards.

The guy check raised you and then led the turn. What makes you think you have enough chance of being ahead that raising the turn for a free showdown is useful? I really don't see many folks c/r'ing the flop and leading the turn when on a draw.

[TheMetetron]

I'll post my rationale once I stop 8-tabling in about 40 min. I can't do both.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
The guy check raised you and then led the turn. What makes you think you have enough chance of being ahead that raising the turn for a free showdown is useful? I really don't see many folks c/r'ing the flop and leading the turn when on a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

At 10/20 I can see just about any player checkraising the flop with just about any draw (this includes A6) and leading the turn with that same draw.

Rob

[TStoneMBD]

btw metetron, 3betting this flop and betting turn/checking and calling a river bet = cheaper showdown.

[Chobohoya]

Not that my question applies to an unknown or this situation, but,

What about this (or any) board texture makes you want to 3bet the flop more? If we know opponents tendencies that's one thing, but with no read, I like a turn raise more than flop 3 bet.

[TStoneMBD]

why? villain isnt folding to a turn raise like rarely ever with a hand that beats you. i think saving yourself the .5SB is much better.

[TheMetetron]

Okay, looking back at this, I still think I like the hand, but I like it more if Villian was BB... oh well.

[ QUOTE ]
The guy check raised you and then led the turn. What makes you think you have enough chance of being ahead that raising the turn for a free showdown is useful? I really don't see many folks c/r'ing the flop and leading the turn when on a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

An average party 10/20er will do this with a flush draw as well as A6 like TStone says. Also, random bluffs on a low board will comprise part of his range.

If I am in fact behind, I'm putting the same amount of bets in to find out. I'm rarely getting 3-bet by a worse hand, so folding isn't a problem.

If I'm ahead of a draw, I get an extra bet in if he misses since he's not calling a river bet or even betting it himself all the time.

[ QUOTE ]
btw metetron, 3betting this flop and betting turn/checking and calling a river bet = cheaper showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

TStone,

I don't think I get nearly as much respect with a flop 3-bet on this board vs. a turn raise. I'm likely to get capped with a draw or some other weird BS pulled on me that may make me fold the best hand.

Also, I don't get the small, but not insignificant chance that he is one of those players who can fold to the turn raise... it is after all an awesome scare card.


I still can't think of a line I like better than this one. 3-betting the flop tends to get me check/raised on the turn or capped on the flop more than I'd like. It's aggression I have trouble facing from LAGgro opponents.

[TStoneMBD]

this is definitely the best card in the deck for you to make the free showdown play with so i dont mean to imply that it wont work. i just mean that i think making the free showdown play regardless of the turn card doesnt have much folding equity at all. that is why i prefer 3betting the flop to get to showdown cheaper. if you think they will cap on a draw though then i definitely agree with you that 3betting the flop is no good.

[TheMetetron]

I wasn't planning a free showdown play on any turn. This one just happened to work out.

In general, I'm not a big fan of 3-betting this flop, but I could be wrong.

[obsidian]

The only problem with the free showdown play is that people who bluff draws almost always bet the river (because he hopes you are also on a draw and will fold) which means you make the same if they only have a draw. The value would come in folding better hands here which rarely happens unless you have some sort of read this guy will fold middle pair. I don't think that overcomes the times you get 3-bet and don't get a chance to see the river where you could have drawn out with 5 live outs. I've begun to dislike the free showdown play more and more at shorthanded games.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I like, folding J7 and the like is very hot.


[/ QUOTE ]

no opponent is folding j7o here. well, maybe tolbiny....

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
The guy check raised you and then led the turn. What makes you think you have enough chance of being ahead that raising the turn for a free showdown is useful? I really don't see many folks c/r'ing the flop and leading the turn when on a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

im curious if you play in the same 10/20 games as i do. donks and good players alike routinely do this.

[obsidian]

[ QUOTE ]
no opponent is folding j7o here. well, maybe tolbiny....

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. The typical 10/20 player never, ever folds J7 here.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The guy check raised you and then led the turn. What makes you think you have enough chance of being ahead that raising the turn for a free showdown is useful? I really don't see many folks c/r'ing the flop and leading the turn when on a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

im curious if you play in the same 10/20 games as i do. donks and good players alike routinely do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess not. Sometimes, yes. Routinely, no. It's read dependent for me based on the villian's aggression. The SB cold calls and check-raises this low flop, I'm more inclined to think small over pair like 88/99.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no opponent is folding j7o here. well, maybe tolbiny....

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. The typical 10/20 player never, ever folds J7 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said he would.

[Spicymoose]

Man, I am really lost on semi-bluffing. I guess I expect people to fold far more often than they do. If we have some random blank turn, TStone is saying we have extremely little fold equity. Does this mean that most of the time hands like 78, 79, 7T, A3, K3 (barring the K turn), 22 don't fold to the turn raise? Or is it not likely that they play the way they have so far? Should I be calling down if I have one of those hands as villain? If this board was slightly less coordinated, I would be able to name a ton more hands, but unfortunately, any other hand I could come up with has a gutshot.


If this board was 359 two tone, would you like the turn raise more on most turns?

[Victor]

this is not a semibluff. its a value raise bc much of your opponents range is drawing hands.

[Lmn55d]

[ QUOTE ]
At 10/20 I can see just about any player checkraising the flop with just about any draw (this includes A6), capping the flop and turn and hitting on the river to beat your top set


[/ QUOTE ]


grr FYP. Seriously though, if you don't see this at the party 10/20 games you are either not being observant or you haven't played enough. The modus operandi for the majority of players is to checkraise the flop with a draw.