Does everybody do this? Make the bad man stop.

[Denutz]

Party, full table $400 NL

I think that I know that I played this hand absolutley miserably, but curious if other's would have played it differently, and if the villian's holdings are obvious to others.

Effective stacks, $400 for me, $800 for main villian, $500 for secondary villian. Not much of a read on villians, haven't been at the table for too long and don't have stats on them.

I'm in EP with KQo (suits not important), limp in, MP player raises to 3xBB, next player cold calls, folds around to me. I think, this is what I get for playing KQo OOP, grumble and make the call.

Flop: ~$40 in pot

K /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Halleliujah - thank the lord. I lead $35 hoping somebody takes it as a flush draw trying to build a pot, main villian raises to $70 - great, exactly what I was hoping for...then next player raises to $125. I pause, think, well they're both full of crap, I'm not going to play around and, with a manly roar, puusshhhhh.

Next player cold calls, last player folds.

Thoughts?

My main points that piss me off are:

1. I didn't really stop to think what hand range the villians were on that would call a push.

2. I thought to myself, chit, the villian probably has x hand, but when am I going to get another flop like this?

I appreciate any thoughts / analysis. Also, I find that in general I can read what the villian has (especially in a full ring game, generally not too complicated), but I'm not willing to act accordingly - any advice? I always think, well I'm 85% certain he has this hand, but WHAT IF he has the other hands that I win with - I should find out by putting my whole goddamn stack in the middle.

[astro]

i dont understand why u played bad? i'd ve played exactly the same way, but im not very good anyway

[scrapperdog]

Hard hand to get away from. I dont think you need to lose much sleep over this. The real problem is that you had 2 people re-raising you. If you call and main villan 4 bets this then you have a problem and I could see getting away. You have to think one of them has a real hand. If this was a heads up pot I would not think twice about this.

[Denutz]

I think I played it poorly b/c I didn't take the time to think about what hands the villian - assuming he's not bluffing, which in a multi-way pot doesn't really make sense - could have that would call my bet.

I would think the hand range is basically:

AK
KQ
KJ
KT (unlikely)
Ax hearts
22

I'm way behind AK and 22 obviously - my only hope is that he has KJ, otherwise I'm putting all my chips in for a chop. Maybe my bet gets AK to fold, but very unlikely.

Do you think my hand range is reasonable or is it too tight, or even too loose? In a full ring game is he calling with anything besides AK, 22, assuming a good, tight player?

[Leptyne]

I certainly don't recommending limping KQo in full-ring OOP. This is a clear fold when raised.

For a better understanding read the Gap Theory. Basically this states that you need a better hand to call a raise than you do to make the raise. Clearly this raises the bar for villain #2. Facing a raise and a cold caller I think I would treat this as if I was UTG+1 and the original raise was made by UTG. I hope you're not going to be in this pot with KQo. As another poster pointed out you have the original raiser left to act.

Basically you have no business limping in EP with trash that can't stand a raise.

[pokerjoker]

fold pf. The first raise scares me enough, the second raise makes it an easy fold imo. This is a good post but the whole thing could be summed up in "this is what I get for playing KQo OOP"

What hand would villian have to 3 bet this? KJ, no way...Ax...really doubtful. 22 or AK..probably.

hold on 1 sec...did the player that raised to $125 fold? Wtf? anyway...easy fold pf IMO

[excession]

I don't mind KQo in an unraised pot (as in an unraised pot if the flop comes K or Q high your kicker is usually good). But I would only limp in in EP on very passive tables. Any raise when I'm OOP with it I'm done - just too likely you are dominated - same rule with Axs unless it's so multiway that I can play it for pure flush value..

[Denutz]

Leptyne, could you tell me where to read more about the Gap theory? I haven't heard of that and would like to read more. PM if you want, but I'm guessing that could be useful for most people.

Pokerjoker, yes the guy who cold called the $125 folded after I pushed - I think he had AK, but after my push and the next player's cold call figured one of us had 22 - unfortunately that wasn't me. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[kurto]

I haven't read anyone's responses... but AK sure isn't folding nor is pocket 2s.

I would generally think that no one's calling your push without AK... but I've been wrong in the past.

It seems that you should at least be considering one or more of your opponents could have AK.

If you won this, I think that's great for you. But when you lead then its raised and reraised before it gets back to you... unless they're complete idiots, you are not ahead here.

[ahnuld]

Yeah, I cant see pishing in that spot in a full ring game. I think I fold KQ right there outright, unless I had a note saying they just get too crazy with flush draws. Limp, fold KQ to a riase. If its suited id call that puss raise, but otherwise id fold.

How did you not consider AK a very very likely hand given the action when it came back to you>

[Percula]

[ QUOTE ]
I always think, well I'm 85% certain he has this hand, but WHAT IF he has the other hands that I win with - I should find out by putting my whole goddamn stack in the middle.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are going to talk yourself in to playing a trap hand in a raised pot OOP... When you find out you are no good, fold.

This is a form of tilt. You need to identify when you are tilting this way and ultimately what is causing it and nip in the bud before you move on up the limits.

I have this tilt too. For me it is the need to fill the addiction for big pots combined with the lack of good hands. Or in other words lack of disipline compounded by bad play.

[beset7]

preflop has already been discussed.

i just wanted to add that third to only TPTK and bottom two pair, flopped trips is one of the most commonly misplayed hands in NL. With this kind of action you are almost never ever good. When you flop trips your first thought shouldn't be "How do I get all my money in?"

[Triumph36]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop has already been discussed.

i just wanted to add that third to only TPTK and bottom two pair, flopped trips is one of the most commonly misplayed hands in NL. With this kind of action you are almost never ever good. When you flop trips your first thought shouldn't be "How do I get all my money in?"

[/ QUOTE ]

It shouldn't? I mean sure in this example, Hero is almost certainly beat - but if you're flopping trips with an excellent kicker, I'm certainly trying to get a lot of money in against most players, especially in an unraised pot, or if I raised it.

The key is slowing down on the turn or river if you face serious resistance.

Yet I find that most players I play against are terrible at getting money in with trips - they often slowplay them on the flop, and bet them small on later streets hoping to get paid off by weak hands. They almost never consider the possbility that the case card is out there in someone else's hand.

[beset7]

My point being that when people are more then willing to cooperate with putting their stack in the middle on a paired board on the flop, unless your opponents are complete idiots, you should be nervous not doing the humpty dance.