odd move at the higher stakes games

[citanul]

the reason i specify higher stakes games is because i know that at the lower stakes games people do this with all sorts of stupid crap.

i've seen a rash lately of people with 6-8 bb raising 2/5 - 1/2 of their stack from 75/150 on.

1) do you think that this gets them more FE than a push?
2) do you think that this gets them more action than a push?
3) do you do this?

c

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
the reason i specify higher stakes games is because i know that at the lower stakes games people do this with all sorts of stupid crap.

i've seen a rash lately of people with 6-8 bb raising 2/5 - 1/2 of their stack from 75/150 on.

1) do you think that this gets them more FE than a push?
2) do you think that this gets them more action than a push?
3) do you do this?

c

[/ QUOTE ]

1. yes
2. duh...see 1
3. maybe I should...no

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
2. duh...see 1

[/ QUOTE ]

i hate you.

Lower stakes - more action.
Higher stakes - more FE.

Do I do this? No. I call with really strong hands (AA,KK,QQ) if it is short handed.

Otherwise, fold or push.

[zambonidrivr]

I think if you do it once, you get respect and have a ton of FE. Second time around, you figure out they are idiots. I will give them the benefit of the doubt first pass. Second, I am re-stealing all the way.

I never do this.

[Mr_Oog]

I have seen this quite a bit as well at the 55's (not sure if that counts as higher stakes or not).

Against the thinking players this at first glance appears to increase FE slightly.

Against the non-thinking players this seems to increase action.

I have not decided to start doing this yet, but I am considering it depending on the opponents behind and if I want a call or not.

-Mike

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
the reason i specify higher stakes games is because i know that at the lower stakes games people do this with all sorts of stupid crap.

i've seen a rash lately of people with 6-8 bb raising 2/5 - 1/2 of their stack from 75/150 on.

1) do you think that this gets them more FE than a push?
2) do you think that this gets them more action than a push?
3) do you do this?

c

[/ QUOTE ]

1. No.
2. Yes.
3. Sometimes if the table's right I'll do this with AA or KK, usually not QQ. They have to be bad enough to not know what's up though.

As an aside, I've noticed a lot of people doing this and then folding to pushes. Lately at the 109's people have been folding a lot of situations where they should be calling with 32o. It's sweet.

[lacky]

well, if they do it for more fold e. it doesn't work on me anyway. If I'm close in deciding, the small chance they will fold to my push (and yes, they do sometimes) tips the scales for me to play.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2. duh...see 1

[/ QUOTE ]

i hate you.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

paid the ultimate compliment from Cit.

(read as: "I love you")

[tigerite]

I just view this as if they have pushed, and act accordingly. Actually their hands even tend to be weaker than you'd expect - often Ax where x is absolute crap.

It gets no respect from me. I very rarely do it.. I can't even remember the last time.

[Deuce2High]

1) Not from me.
2) From me, it does.
3) Almost never... Unless my raise forces someone to play a hand in which they are pot committed, and I have AA or KK.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I just view this as if they have pushed, and act accordingly. Actually their hands even tend to be weaker than you'd expect - often Ax where x is absolute crap.

It gets no respect from me. I very rarely do it.. I can't even remember the last time.

[/ QUOTE ]

tigerite,

your response is exactly as interesting to me as all the rest of them. at some point i'll go through them all.

you "view it as if they have pushed and act accordingly" but it "gets no respect from you."

the hands are "weaker than i'd expect - often Ax ..." but you treat it like they've pushed and act accordingly.

these things don't add up. either it has more folding equity or not against you. either you treat it exactly like a push or not.

more importantly, if you think that they do it with crap, shouldn't you be continuing with more hands than you would against a push? if it's an effective way of making people fold more, why wouldn't you do it yourself?

c

[tigerite]

Ok, I mean that I don't respect it any more than if they had pushed. i.e. if their stack is in the desperation range, and I think they are capable of a push with a relatively weak hand, that I am ahead of (say with AJs, or some mid-to-high pair, or whatever) I'm moving in on them. Maybe there is one odd very rare occasion here and there where I might, just might, consider a raise like this different from if he had moved all-in in the first place. The increase in FE it gains from me is negligible.

[tigerite]

But I don't think I've often seen people do this move with more hands than I'd have expected them to open push with; so I don't reckon it would be viewed as necessarily weaker than open pushing. There are exceptions to this too of course - like if it's a LAG donk or something, well, his raise gets very little respect from me anyway, and he probably hasn't even considered his stack size etc.

1) do you think that this gets them more FE than a push?
2) do you think that this gets them more action than a push?
3) do you do this?

1) I think a raise that is not all-in gets more FE from solid players who know that you are solid, and less FE from bad/average players who don't know about pushbottting. At least that is what I think, because they'll have to call of less of their stack. Solid players will be confused about why you didn't push.

2) It might get more action if there are bad players left to act. See 1. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

3) I never do this. I do raise 2-3BB in stead of pushing with high blinds with monsters VS people who would call this and not a push. I never raise 6bb in stead of pushing. Maybe I'll experiment with it on a tight table. (btw, these threads have some influence on the play in higher stakes games I think. It could be my imagination, but at the $55's after there was a thread where several players said they will call with any ace and low pairs when a pushbotter pushes in to them, I got called with crap all the time by the 2+2-ish players. Meh. )

[FieryJustice]

I've been playing step 5s and step 4 highers for the last few days and people do this all the time. There are a few that will fold after they make the 2/5 stack raise but most will call. Last night, i remember someone putting 1/2 his stack in with J2s from the button. I guess they think it gives them more fe and I have learned to treat these stupid raises as pushes.

[microbet]

Depends. Depends. Sometimes. I'm most likely to do it to get action from a weaker player. I can almost hear the other 2p2ers at the table saying "HE'S GOT ACES YOU MORAN!!!!" Against you 2p2ers I do it very rarely and with monsters and trash in the perfect GT proportions /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

A lot of the time in this forum I feel like reads are the elephant in the room that no one notices.

I don't mean you Cit.

[Melchiades]

If someone has been pushing his 7BB stack once every orbit three or four times, and he suddenly minraises half his stack it might increase his FE to me.

[The Yugoslavian]

cit,

I treat those raises as pushes at all stakes unless I have evidence from villian otherwise.

I think the move convinces some players to push weaker hands and some players to push stronger hands than they normally would have played to an allin.

I only really use it to mix up my game - I err on the side of having a strongish hand b/c my hunch is that it lowers FE (and I play mostly at lower stakes).

Yugoslav

[Hendricks433]

Well I was in a $11 and figured Id look a person up after seeing this post earlier. he riased like 2X the BB maybe 3X ish but half his stack so I reriased him all in with KQ sooted and he called with Q9 off suit.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I was in a $11 and figured Id look a person up after seeing this post earlier. he riased like 2X the BB maybe 3X ish but half his stack so I reriased him all in with KQ sooted and he called with Q9 off suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, this is the specific reason that i asked about higher stakes games. in the lower stakes games i know what this raise size means. it means "the spasms i have from having such low brain power that i can't control my motion put the slider there."

Lacky, tigerite, and citanul had sex with the proverbial mother of this topic.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
it means "the spasms i have from having such low brain power that i can't control my motion put the slider there."

[/ QUOTE ]

nh.

[Gramps]

Makes it more difficult for the BB to calculate pot odds. I don't do it myself though, I already have enough problems with spite calls, I don't want to do anything more to tick off my opponents...