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View Full Version : AA in a big pot.

ReadyEddie
12-07-2005, 12:57 PM
Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (19.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (13.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (17.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls (all in) , <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 28.75 BB.

reads:
mp1 is 60/3
mp2 is unknown
mp3 is unknown

any way to give up earlier or is this good?
joeski19
12-07-2005, 01:07 PM
tough without reads. What happened to UTG+1?

I would play it the same way. Looks like someone got a set or two pair on the river. Or someone was slow playing a set. Without reads you have to call down on the river because the pot is so big, and for information on the fish calling with 97s.
crunchy1
12-07-2005, 01:10 PM
I think you can save yourself a BB on the river and fold to MP2's 3-bet.
ReadyEddie
12-07-2005, 01:11 PM
UTG + 1 folded preflop when it was 2 cold back to him..
Wyers
12-07-2005, 01:15 PM
You have been aggressive the entire hand and now MP1 and MP2 bet and raise into you? Even without reads I think you can safely fold this hand and save yourself the bets.

It is very possible that, if you cold call, it will be three-bet or capped coming back to you.

Fold it.
ReadyEddie
12-07-2005, 01:19 PM
^ when to fold is the question
12-07-2005, 01:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
^ when to fold is the question

[/ QUOTE ]

...uh... when it's your turn on the river.
Wyers
12-07-2005, 01:29 PM
How about when its two bets to you on the river?
joeski19
12-07-2005, 01:30 PM
Huh, maybe that's why I'm spewing. Since it's Party i call down. I won't like, and I think going to lose, but I've seen so much donking, and misplaced aggression. I've folded better hands only to see the outcome and be amazed someone was capping middle pair when a flush and a straight was on the board. Also if I had a good read on either MP2 or MP3 I could make a fold if they are soild players.
crunchy1
12-07-2005, 01:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Since it's Party i call down.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting that at a Crypto site or PokerStars you would've folded? You should be basing your decisions on the players - not the site. In the absence of reads on the players your default lines should also not be site specific.
MrEngenic
12-07-2005, 01:45 PM
I would have played it the same but I would not feel easy about the call when it's two bets to me on the river. Is this really a very safe fold? 3 bets and I fold in a heartbeat, one bet and I would never fold...
12-07-2005, 01:53 PM
There is no way you can give this up at all in a pot of that size. The board is not very coordinated and looks like it might be good for you based on the preflop action. Were you against TT, JJ, or QQ?

The bottom line is that you may only win this pot 50% of the time, but against 3 other opponents that is a huge equity advantage. You just have to get your money in there and hope your hand holds up. Just my take though. Someone may have differing opinions. I just know I'm not folding AA with that preflop action and that board when the pot is almost 30 big bets.
Wyers
12-07-2005, 02:15 PM
The bottom line is that you may only win this pot 50% of the time...

I don't think it is likely that you will win this pot anywhere near 50% of the time. Not having reads makes this a little tricky but the betting and raising into an opponent who has controlled the action to this point is rarely a good thing.

Given the action to this point, it isn't likely the 2nd raiser is some maniac.

Fold.
12-07-2005, 02:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
There is no way you can give this up at all in a pot of that size. The board is not very coordinated and looks like it might be good for you based on the preflop action. Were you against TT, JJ, or QQ?

The bottom line is that you may only win this pot 50% of the time, but against 3 other opponents that is a huge equity advantage. You just have to get your money in there and hope your hand holds up. Just my take though. Someone may have differing opinions. I just know I'm not folding AA with that preflop action and that board when the pot is almost 30 big bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you should try reading this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=4085019&amp;page=0&amp;fpart=all &amp;vc=1).
12-07-2005, 02:30 PM
You only need to be ahead much less than 50%. When the action gets to you . . . the odds of calling 2 cold are about 10:1 . . . the question then is: Will we beat two opponents more than 10% of the time?

I would probably call
crunchy1
12-07-2005, 02:50 PM
I can understand calling the first 2BBs on the river. It's probably very, very close and, at the same time, also very possibly -EV. However...

There's a reasonable chance that MP2 is taking a shot on the river and ALSO that MP3 recognized this and is trying to push out better hands with something like AT or 99. The combination of these possibilities is probably more remote than I give it credit for. However, given that this is a possible scenario, and also given that there's no fear of a 3-bet (MP1 will be all-in, MP2 is not going to bluff 3-bet) I can understand a call.

That being said - when MP3 raises the river, Hero calls, MP1 does commit to showdown by going all-in, and MP2 can still 3-bet - it's pretty obvious that one-pair is not going to win in this pot.

I don't think that Hero's reaction to the initial river raise (whether it be calling OR folding) is costing Hero as much as some people seem to think. I think that calling a river 3-bet, in a protected pot, with one-pair is tossing away an extra big bet because AA looks pretty and the pot was big.
12-07-2005, 03:00 PM
Agreed. Calling/folding the 2-bet is not so bad either way. Calling the 3-bet is very much a crying call.
droolie
12-07-2005, 03:33 PM
When MP2 leads the river what were you thinking? I'm think he can beat 1 pair. When he 3-bets I know he can. Throw in the other callers and raisers and you win this hand 1% of the time. That's probably generous.
gopnik
12-07-2005, 06:54 PM
reads would be nice, but I am leaning towards folding this river. MP3 has you beat like 100% of the time.
gopnik
12-07-2005, 06:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
^ when to fold is the question

[/ QUOTE ]
I fold this preflop
W. Deranged
12-07-2005, 07:03 PM
I'm pretty happy to call the two cold on the river and fold to the river three-bet and make sure I close my eyes so I don't see the results.
ReadyEddie
12-08-2005, 12:18 PM
yep i like the calling 2 cold and folding to the 3rd bet as well...

one of them had KK and the other had the 88 for the miracle river, the all in guy had some trash i forgot
jskills
12-08-2005, 12:22 PM
No other way to play this.

The river sure sucks though. The only place you could fold (and you'd need a strong read to do so) is the first time you have to call two bets cold. I'd probably get trapped in that spot too /images/graemlins/frown.gif