It worked, but too agg???

[JerBear77]

Here it is with my thoughts on every street.
Absolute .50/1

Hero on button with K /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif

UTG limps, MP calls, <font color="red"> Hero raises </font>,
called around.

<font color="green">Standard </font>

Flop: 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG bets, MP calls, <font color="red"> Hero raises </font>, called around.

<font color="green"> Build pot up and hopefully get a free card after turn if misses. </font>

Turn: A /images/graemlins/club.gif

UTG bets, MP folds, <font color="red"> Hero raises</font>, UTG reraises, <font color="red">hero caps </font> , UTG calls.

<font color="green"> got nut flush draw plus st8 draw so get more money in there </font>
EDIT: Im raising regardless, on the UTG RR, i figure with the Pot odds, im getting the extra bets in there.

River: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

On the flop I think it's either call or raise. I count to 8.5 outs (3 for OC, 1.5 BDFD, 4 for the gutshot).

I'm just calling the turn. With 12 outs to the nuts you are still an underdog.

grunch

I don't know about my flop. I would be tempted to raise him and I think I do that 50% of the time here. 50% raise and 50% call here. I don't raise the turn and I certainly not cap it. I am way behind here and the only card that can save me is a J and a club. I don't think a K or Q is good for me anymore. I call behind to his bet.

I'm counting 13 outs on the turn. Call the turn and wait for a hand to raise the river

I would play the flop the exact same way, with the hopes of getting a free card. The turn is helpful, but you're still behind. I think raising as a semi bluff is reasonable if you think he might fold, but that's probably not happening at these levels.

Capping puts in too much money on the turn when you are certainly behind. I would just call his bet, and this would especially be the case if there had been other people in the hand that you would not want leaving.

[crunchy1]

PF is fine.

I think you're better off calling on the flop for a few reasons.

#1 - You probably don't have as many outs as you think you have. There's a good chance that hitting a K or Q could make you a second best hand. Given the seeming level of aggression that you play with - this would be bad.

#2 - Raising isn't really gaining you value. By my estimations, it's pretty close to your hand even having 1/3 equity in the pot - and I think it's actually a little bit below 1/3.

#3 - By only calling on the flop - you keep UTG in the betting lead on the turn which will allow you to gain some value on a BB street if you hit. (You've also made it easier for MP to call 1BB and get trapped on the turn because he won't fear a raise since you just called the flop)

Overplaying draws/overcards like this is going to cost you $$$ in the long term. Also, the free card flop play is overrated. Use it sparingly and understand why and when you should and shouldn't be using it.

your equity on the turn is only 28% (I think, please correct if wrong), so I'm definitely not capping. I want at least 2 more people in the pot to cap. (again please correct if necessary)

[sean c]

Hi Jerbear the turn is major spewage. I you clearly have the pot odds to call but do not have enough pot equity to raise.

[car ramrod]

call teh turn, you have a good draw, but not enough equity to raise, let alone cap.
nice river.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
your equity on the turn is only 28% (I think, please correct if wrong), so I'm definitely not capping. I want at least 2 more people in the pot to cap. (again please correct if necessary)

[/ QUOTE ]

No you got it newby except his pot equity is actually 26%(12 outs)

[Eeegah]

Unless you're feeling really weak because your aggression factor is starting to slip below 10, this is a silly turn raise and a ludicrous cap.

[Thebram]

...grunch...

I like the flop raise

I even like the turn raise, but I dont like the turn cap.
Unless he's gone crazy with 8x, you simply need to improve to win. And just hitting a K or Q is probably not enough.

By capping you've said you have a huge hand already. So if he has something that will be crushed by a straight or flush, you're not getting more than 1 bet out of him on the river. If you miss, chances are you lose.

Assume you win with a straight or flush, but loose with anything else. Also assume you will fold the river if you dont hit a straight or a flush. 12 outs. You'll hit 26% of the time. (*I'm not discounting the board pairing for simplicity)

With capping, worst case scenario is that he slows down when you miss. So you lose 1 BB 74% of the time, and make 2 BB 26% of the time.
If you dont cap, then 74% of the time you lose 0 BB, and 26% of the time you make 2 BB when he bets and you raise.

Buy it?

[JerBear77]

[ QUOTE ]
...grunch...

I like the flop raise

I even like the turn raise, but I dont like the turn cap.
Unless he's gone crazy with 8x, you simply need to improve to win. And just hitting a K or Q is probably not enough.

By capping you've said you have a huge hand already. So if he has something that will be crushed by a straight or flush, you're not getting more than 1 bet out of him on the river. If you miss, chances are you lose.

Assume you win with a straight or flush, but loose with anything else. Also assume you will fold the river if you dont hit a straight or a flush. 12 outs. You'll hit 26% of the time. (*I'm not discounting the board pairing for simplicity)

With capping, worst case scenario is that he slows down when you miss. So you lose 1 BB 74% of the time, and make 2 BB 26% of the time.
If you dont cap, then 74% of the time you lose 0 BB, and 26% of the time you make 2 BB when he bets and you raise.

Buy it?

[/ QUOTE ]

So, basically buy just calling RR then I am getting 2 bets on the river if i hit my hand.... I see.

Well, he did cap the river cause he had Trip As.

Also, I am knowing that My K or Q is not good after the turn card.

Now lets change this,

lets say the turn was the J /images/graemlins/club.gif giving me Open ended and flush draw, is my raise justified then on the turn for everyone who said I should just call?

[milesdyson]

do the math. if he has top pair, no. plug the hand into pokerstove and look at your equity. then realize that even if you are 51% here (you're not, but if you were) you gain less by raising when you're drawing and then getting one bet on the river than calling when you're drawing and getting two bets on the river.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...grunch...

I like the flop raise

I even like the turn raise, but I dont like the turn cap.
Unless he's gone crazy with 8x, you simply need to improve to win. And just hitting a K or Q is probably not enough.

By capping you've said you have a huge hand already. So if he has something that will be crushed by a straight or flush, you're not getting more than 1 bet out of him on the river. If you miss, chances are you lose.

Assume you win with a straight or flush, but loose with anything else. Also assume you will fold the river if you dont hit a straight or a flush. 12 outs. You'll hit 26% of the time. (*I'm not discounting the board pairing for simplicity)

With capping, worst case scenario is that he slows down when you miss. So you lose 1 BB 74% of the time, and make 2 BB 26% of the time.
If you dont cap, then 74% of the time you lose 0 BB, and 26% of the time you make 2 BB when he bets and you raise.

Buy it?

[/ QUOTE ]

So, basically buy just calling RR then I am getting 2 bets on the river if i hit my hand.... I see.

Well, he did cap the river cause he had Trip As.

Also, I am knowing that My K or Q is not good after the turn card.

Now lets change this,

lets say the turn was the J /images/graemlins/club.gif giving me Open ended and flush draw, is my raise justified then on the turn for everyone who said I should just call?

[/ QUOTE ]

It would depend on how clean your overcards wer but probably not. Flush outs 9, non flush straight outs 6, discount your overcards to 3 outs instead of 6 for 18 total outs. 18 outs with one card to come would put your equity at 39% still not enough to raise the turn heads up even though you have a monster draw.

[Homer315]

Ummm, a turn Jack gives you a made hand, the str8. So yes, raise that turn in that case.

[Eeegah]

Edit: haha n/m, read the post wrong

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you're feeling really weak because your aggression factor is starting to slip below 10, this is a silly turn raise and a ludicrous cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think flop raise to call is fairly ev neutral, depending on players.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unless you're feeling really weak because your aggression factor is starting to slip below 10, this is a silly turn raise and a ludicrous cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think flop raise to call is fairly ev neutral, depending on players.

[/ QUOTE ]

[JerBear77]

[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, a turn Jack gives you a made hand, the str8. So yes, raise that turn in that case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Daaaaaaaaaam

What i wanted to discuss is if the Turn gives me an Openended st8, flush draw and 2 overcards...sorry.

[Eeegah]

^^^^^ But you dont have overcards. And even if you did, there's no way you can bet for value because you'd need over half the deck to make your hand.

[ QUOTE ]
i think flop raise to call is fairly ev neutral, depending on players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind the flop raise at all. It's the turn that I don't like.

there is no way you can make an openended straight on the turn

[milesdyson]

omfg dude it was a hypothetical. say the flop was 23T and the turn was a J.

do you honestly expect me to pay that much attention? lol

nah if it was explained that way then sry, i just thought you were misreading the board

[JerBear77]

[ QUOTE ]
omfg dude it was a hypothetical. say the flop was 23T and the turn was a J.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanx bud,
You have now taken the title for one of my favorite posters, you and that guy that has the gerber baby picture for a avatar..can't think of his name.

[milesdyson]

i'm here to stamp this thread

[b]OFFICIAL STAMP: <font color="rED">TRAIN WRECK.