$109... Did I just min-raise? "No more drugs for this man..."

[bigt439]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t1440)
MP2 (t2040)
CO (t947)
Button (t1480)
Hero (t865)
BB (t1255)
UTG (t930)
UTG+1 (t1043)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t90</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t60.

Flop: (t210) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t125</font>, UTG+1 calls t125.

Turn: (t460) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t400</font>, UTG+1 calls t200.

River: (t1260) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t250 (All-In)</font>, UTG+1 calls t250.

Final Pot: t1760

Here's the thinking:

He's got a hand because he called the flop. If he's got a flush it doesn't really matter what I do. Ditto a straight IMO. If he's got two pair or a set, I don't think he's going anywhere either. Soooo, the minraise here just helps him convince himself his one pair hand is good, or that he's got odds because of his lone heart and will have to call by the time we get to the river. I never min raise, like ever, but here it seemed like the right play.

[rbear]

I agree. NH. You've got the nuts at this point, but what happens if the board pairs and villian boats up? I think if villian calls 200, villian calls the extra 250. I give villian worst odds for any draw still out there (as a flush stays, straight most likely stays, and a set still has quite a few outs.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. NH. You've got the nuts at this point, but what happens if the board pairs and villian boats up? I think if villian calls 200, villian calls the extra 250. I give villian worst odds for any draw still out there (as a flush stays, straight most likely stays, and a set still has quite a few outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's not folding a set or two pair no matter the river card or turn / river action, which I think is quite a reasonable assumption, then giving him odds or not doesn't matter. The money is going in every time in every scenario.

[rbear]

Yea, I guess it doesn't really matter. I just like the possibility that a hand that could draw out on me could potentially fold (which I'd rather have them do obviously). Additionally, I feel like I did everything I could to give them the worst possible odds when they do suck out. Maybe this is a leak and I'm losing value, I'm not sure.

[tigerite]

I like it, but I really do not like the pf raise from the SB very much.

[z32fanatic]

I like the miniraise only because you are out of position. If I had position I would just call. That said, I wouldn't raise AJ out of the SB for just this reason. Even if you make the nuts it will be difficult to extract the most from this hand.

[microbet]

I can't see the suits, but it's pretty apparent you hit the flush on the turn.

What happens when he has a medium strength hand and what happens when he has a draw?

When he has a medium strength hand he may be more willing to call a c/raise allin thinking you are on a draw and when he has a draw I think he is probably still going to call the c/raise allin based on your stacks and how much is in the pot. I think the biggest risk with the minraise is that you don't get that 250 on a missed draw and the second is that villian puts you on the nuts and folds TPTK or 2-pair. The only real upside is that maybe a draw calls the minraise but folds to the allin.

I think of the many times the c/raise allin gets a fold here, there was a strong chance you wouldn't have gotten any more chips regardless of what you did.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it, but I really do not like the pf raise from the SB very much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this is at the bottom of my range for doing that, but I don't really see a problem with it. I'm pretty comfortable post-flop and I almost always have the best hand here (excluding when he has small pairs which he'll often fold to my c-bet). I could be wrong, but I think the raise is fine.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't see the suits, but it's pretty apparent you hit the flush on the turn.

What happens when he has a medium strength hand and what happens when he has a draw?

When he has a medium strength hand he may be more willing to call a c/raise allin thinking you are on a draw and when he has a draw I think he is probably still going to call the c/raise allin based on your stacks and how much is in the pot. I think the biggest risk with the minraise is that you don't get that 250 on a missed draw and the second is that villian puts you on the nuts and folds TPTK or 2-pair. The only real upside is that maybe a draw calls the minraise but folds to the allin.

I think of the many times the c/raise allin gets a fold here, there was a strong chance you wouldn't have gotten any more chips regardless of what you did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. And that's what this post is I guess. Weighing these options out. You do miss one very important of information in this hand though. He has to have some sort of made hand if he called on the flop (only exception being KJ) so he is almost never folding for the 250 on the end IMO. That's why I like this, he can talk himself into calling on the river with 33 because I bluff min raised with one heart or something (obviously this doesn't happen all the time, but is a very extreme example anyways). Also I don't know that many opponents at this level are more worried about a minraise than an all-in here. Against a decent player I totally agree with you, but there are few decent players in these tournies, I thought I'd take my chances. Obviously I feel that more people are calling the minraise than the all-in, and then almost never folding to the last 250 on the end. But I respect your opinion that this isn't true.

[rbear]

I really can't see anyone calling this minraise that isn't willing to commit to the 450, especially at a 109.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I really can't see anyone calling this minraise that isn't willing to commit to the 450, especially at a 109.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? This is the entire point of the thread. And why do people think 109's are these poker playing meccas? People are still awful.

[rbear]

Yea, you're right. A player that already has 50% of their stack in the middle, will definitely call another half of their stack, but will be scared off by 250 more.

[microbet]

thx.

I think the flat call on the flop is pretty bad regardless of his cards so I wouldn't rule out much.

Partly I was just being a devil's advocate, there is very very little difference here.

What about the meta game, and how 1 or 2 people just noted you up for minraising with the nuts? I'm just figuring out the $109s and maybe I overestimate them, but don't Bonofone, ImCastleMan, and John Hurst sit at every single $109 24-7?

[tigerite]

Heh not quite every single one.. and I think Bonafone dropped down just lately to the $55s. Only seen John in a couple $109s so far, but I do play at strange times compared to the US. Castleman is in quite a lot, though.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
thx.

I think the flat call on the flop is pretty bad regardless of his cards so I wouldn't rule out much.

Partly I was just being a devil's advocate, there is very very little difference here.

What about the meta game, and how 1 or 2 people just noted you up for minraising with the nuts? I'm just figuring out the $109s and maybe I overestimate them, but don't Bonofone, ImCastleMan, and John Hurst sit at every single $109 24-7?

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, I've done this like once in my life, so I don't think the metagame thing makes a difference at all. Plus I know who the aforementioned players are and obviously would make the necessary adjustments. I haven't seen bonafone in a while, I see John Hurst a lot and I see CastleMan a lot too (he's SevnFigures now right?).

[microbet]

I guess castleman's sn is public, because the only place I could have learned it is here. AFAIK, that's it.

I guess I haven't seen Bonofone for a week or so. He used to be at about 1/2 my tables.

I guess this means I see you a lot too.

[tigerite]

I probably see both of you two a lot, too, but don't realise it.

z32fanatic is in quite a few as well - his name on here is pretty easy to guess /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bigt439]

Alright, I think the general consensus here is it doesn't really matter. Fair enough. I think that the min raise is a bit better than pushing for the reasons I stated, but probably by a negligible amount.

He turned the straight. Sucker was getting burned no matter what.