20-40 I can't play like Mason plays

[Clarkmeister]

Lively 20-40 game at the Mirage

Legitimate open raise from CO-1, who won't attempt stealing with garbage, and won't give action against resistance (bets and raises) postflop without a hand, but will severely overplay if he has top pair/top kicker or overpair.

Its folded to me in the SB with KsKc. The BB is a semi-maniac regular named Tom. Tom will also overplay on the flop, but not if he thinks I have a big hand. Tom is also capable of folding to a 3-bet from me and will definitely call just one bet.

I decide to be all tricky and Mason-like and call with my black Kings.

BB calls, as expected. FWIW, if he had reraised, I would have then gone ahead and 4-bet/capped as appropriate.

3 to the flop for 3BBs.

Flop: 2c 3c 5c. Checked to CO-1 who bets, I call, BB calls.

Turn: Jc. Giving me a K-high flush. Checked through.

River: 7d. I bet, BB shakes his head, says "you're too good, I can't beat you" and reluctantly calls, CO-1 folds.

My hand is good.

I detest playing poker like this. Next time I'm 3-betting preflop and shoving it down their throats and they can call if they choose. Or did I play it OK?

[Ray Zee]

i never thought you would turn into one of those wimpy players that wear their knuckles out on the felt. you are barred from posting on this forum for 20 minutes.

what you have to consider is how much you are giving up by letting an ace draw against you. and after the flop what if the last guy had an ace or somethng else that gave him a bunch of outs on you. was it worth letting him in when you probably would get some action from the bettor.

[Clarkmeister]

Note I refrained from posting on this site fro 20 minutes, per your directive.

A non-club ace only has 5 outs against me, and is subject to redraws. And the Ace of Trump has enough outs that on the flop he's almost got 50% equity so I don't gain by pushing, and in fact *want* that extra player coming along. I think its worth noting that without an ace, preflop raiser is drawing dead or nearly so.

BB however might have a piece and raising the flop might slow him down. If BB had been between me and the preflop raiser (i.e. he had called the PFR's flop bet already), I would have gone ahead and checkraised the flop, but I thought the overcall was the way to go given the board, my hand, and the size of the pot. Plus, when BB simply calls the flop, I know he has very very little.

It all sounds good, but I still hate playing like this.

[Ed Miller]

I just posted a hand that I played uncharacteristically passively. One of the main reasons I chose to play the hand that way was to vary my play a little bit. Recently, I've found that people have been making thin value bets against me because I think that my checks and calls say too much about the quality of my hand. Since you are always firing at the pot as well, I think it's probably for the best that you play a hand like this occasionally.

[Ed S.]

I concur. Yeah you hate to do it and sometimes it will bite you in the ass too. This time it didn't and you got to show down your hand with a big pocket pair while playing it passively. So it does go a long way like the MK said.


Ed S.

[rtrombone]

It's ok to do this occasionally. Post-flop, though, I think you should make use of the deception from your pre-flop smooth call and play it faster.

Why not bet, hoping the big blind will call and LP guy will raise so you can 3-bet?

Your arguments are fine re: the pre-flop call because you got the same number of bets you would have had you 3-bet (big blind would have probably mucked). Post-flop, though, I think you left some bets on the table.

[andyfox]

When a late position player open-raises, I'll 3-bet with hands other than A-A or K-K. My opponent(s) can't put me on a monster only; thus, no need for deception. I find deception best when one-on-one; I'd rather eliminate another player behind me.

I see nothing wrong with your post-flop play. Pretty likely pre-flop raiser is going to bet this baby rags flop after both have checked in front of him. And I wouldn't be worried about BB calling with a singleton ace, since the 3 clubs would probably going to cause him to fold unless that ace is a club, in which case he's probably going to raise himself.

I also prefer hitting them over their heads with the biggest hammer I can find, but doing this every once in a while against guys you play with regularly can be beneficial.

[Mikey]

I thought I was weak tight.

:-)

Sometimes we goof and make these plays, what can you do.

[bigfishead]

I'm starting to think I may have to call you Mizz Clarkmeister! Twice in one week the Clarkmeister played it like he was wearin a dress!

What happened did you take one of those "Fancy Play Syndrome" drugs? Ya know it's not wise to play under the influence.

I'm ordering a dress.

Regards,
Larry

[skp]

If the bb had a non-ace club, he may figure that he has 5 outs (2 aces, 3 fours). Then again, he would have to discount these outs as an Ace might just get him in kicker trouble, one of the 4's might just get him a split etc. If the bb had a hand like Ad3d, then his hand is easily worth playing for just bet on the flop.

BTW, I am not pointing any of the above out to say that Clark should have raised. Come to think of it, I have no idea why I am pointing out any of the above.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

All I can say is that if I had posted this hand, Clark and Dynasty would have called my play passive, weak, atrocious, etc. So, I'm compelled to do the same. How can you possibly just call btf with KK and then check with the best hand on the turn? BTW, if this was against the Tommy I think it was (last name is 2 initials), you can never ever back down. This guy will cap with 10,5 offsuit if he's really feeling jiggy. Also, he is highly capable of calling you done with an Ace of the suit in question, so you must charge him the full amount ALWAYS. BTW, I think you would look fine in a skirt with those pretty long legs. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif LGPG, Babe /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

[Dynasty]

All I can say is that if I had posted this hand, Clark and Dynasty would have called my play passive, weak, atrocious, etc.

Actually, I remember doing this exact same thing with AA.

[Tommy Angelo]

I agree with your post title. Mason would have checked the river. :-)

[bigfishead]

Dont ya think he should get a wax?

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

For what's it worth, I would reraise virtually every time here (before the flop). You're confusing my calls in multiway situations where a three bet will not get people to fold. I'm also three betting a late position raiser like this with many hands out of the small blind, so I definitely also want to do it with the kings to help balance my strategy.

best wishes,
Mason

[ACBob]

Clark,

I agree with your conclusion. In this situation, I am going to three bet.

1) I want to charge the BB two bets to play
2) I want to get the extra bet head up against the original raiser
3) Taking the betting initiative

Glad you survived that board.

Bob Lewis

[Louie Landale]

There are times when a Possum should rear up on its hind legs and confront an attacker. And my mother should keep a compass in the car so when she gets hopelessly lost at least she can orient the car due north while reading the map. But it ain't never gunna happen. A leapard can't change its spots. Neither can you.

Be at peace. Raise it up you moron.

- Louie /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

"I yam what I yam" - Philospher Popeye.

[Louie Landale]

I just noticed that my typed in ":" ")" was turned into a smiley face. Really, what I meant was : ), NOT the smiley face.

I'll correct my options so nothing like that ever happens again.

- Louie