Newbie PLO question - Do I fold the nuts here?

$.50-$1 PLO on Crypto

I have K /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in the BB

Flop: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet the pot = $7

A tight player check raises the pot from the SB= $21 more

He has $64 left and I have him covered

I have the nut str8 (which I know is weak on a flop like this in PLO) but I also have a weak redraw to the flush. What is the correct play?

BTW, the SB just called my re-raise and shows A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif and I lose a 46.63BB pot to a K /images/graemlins/heart.gif on 4th street

Without reads I would have put him on 2-5 w/o the redraw and would have reraised pot assuming that I was on a freeroll.

[Tilt]

Pushing is standard here. Whining about a beat is not.

[MattiasL]

You are right that the straight is somewhat vulnerable here, but you should not underestimate your hand.

You are ahead of every probable hand except set + better flush draw (A freerolling straight + better flush is not probable). This is a real danger after the checkraise, but there are alternative holdings like the straight (improbable since he should be afraid of giving free cards) or AA without the draw.

Since the 6 of hearts is an additional straight flush out for you, you have 45% equity against most set+flush hands (and 40% when he holds the 6). Combine this with your dominating position against a bare set or non-flush straight hand and you have good combined expectation even if set + draw probability is estimated to 70-80%. Pushing should definitely be +EV.

The alternative is calling with the option of folding if the turn pairs the board or the flush comes in and the opponent pushes. This may have better EV against a predictable opponent. Note that there are some problems with this approach:
1. You risk making a big mistake and fold the better hand.
2. You do not extract the maximum from a worse straight hand.

Pushing seems the standard, easy way.

[MattiasL]

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing is standard here. Whining about a beat is not.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that is a bit unfair.

Many players wont checkraise a two-color flop unless they have the flush covered (since giving free cards here would stink otherwise). So set + flush draw is a real danger here.

And straight vs set + flush draw is a classic Omaha trap where the set+draw is the dominating hand if you get all-in on the flop.

In this case the situation is not that bad since we hold two flush cards and also cover the 6 through the straight flush, but the general principle is sound.

[MattiasL]

One additional comment: Please give the full action (pre-flop and flop in this case) when posting since that is needed for good hand reading.

[Tilt]

Its not unfair. The decision here is easy. You should assume at this level and these stack sizes that you have a freeroll and shove. Sometimes better draws make you a dog. Sometimes your opponent is the dog and beats you anyway. But those posts belong in the bad beat forum, which you will note is not highly populated with PLO players. There is a reason for that.

[MattiasL]

I disagree.

You should not assume the freeroll (since I think set+flush is reasonably probable here). You should weigh
1. Set+flush => smallish -EV
2. Freeroll or strong domination => large +EV
and conclude that the total is +EV (for reasonable probabilities).
This means that a fold is out of the question. I dont think that the decision between call and push is trivially simple, though.

About the set+flush possibility: The reason I put a high probability on this is that a checkraise on just the wheel with no additional draws would be stupid. (Stupid opponents are fairly common at those limits, but so are reasonable opponents, and the OP read the opponent as "tight").

Also, I did not read this as a bad beat story.
That would be: "I was outdrawn! Poor me!" (which is a stupid attitude in PLO)
The OP I read more as: "I pushed my money in with the worse hand. Did I screw up?"

I dont think I have anything more to add to this thread, really.

[steamboatin]

[ QUOTE ]
But those posts belong in the bad beat forum, which you will note is not highly populated with PLO players. There is a reason for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it because you get killed on the river so often that you get used to it?

[joewatch]

Tilt,
I don't agree pushing is standard here, as the flush draw is weak, so hero could actually be the one getting freerolled. I think flat calling, then putting the rest of the money in on the turn is reasonable.

Also, he's a dog to drawing hands w/ bigger flush draw+OESD:
pokenum -o kc jc 2h 5h - 5s 6h kh kd -- as 3h 4h
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing As 4h 3h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kc Jc 5h 2h 403 49.15 408 49.76 9 1.10 0.497
5s Kd Kh 6h 408 49.76 403 49.15 9 1.10 0.503

pokenum -o kc jc 2h 5h - 5s 6h ah kd -- as 3h 4h
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing As 4h 3h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kc Jc 5h 2h 361 44.02 450 54.88 9 1.10 0.446
5s Kd Ah 6h 450 54.88 361 44.02 9 1.10 0.554