Would you?

[Poker Jon]

2 Table SNG at Stars. NLHE

About the 2nd hand into the tourney so blinds still 10/20.

I am on the button and look down at 65 both spades. There are 6 callers so I chuck in my 20, SB plays and BB checks.

Flop comes K74 all spades. MP bets the pot, another MP calls, the rest fold to me, and I re-raise all in, figuring to knock out any single A or K looking for the forth.

All folded and I took the pot.

Do you think I was over-aggresive?
How would you play it differently, if so?

[banditbdl]

I think you played it well. If you bet less and another spade comes you're in a real tough spot if you get bet into, just take the pot and run.

[Eric P]

I think that's a rediculous play, the only was anyone will call is if they flopped an A or K flush. If they A or K alone calls you on a draw, well obvoiusly you would like nothing more. Surely you can raise here but your whole stack just seems like a bad play, you can't do anything but lose EV in the long run.

[Rickfish]

I make the pot as 180 pre-flop, then someone bets the flop and someone calls. If you raise, you first call the 180 making 760 in the pot, so how much to re-raise? Assuming you started with 1500 it seems sensible, if you are going to raise, to go all-in. Of course, you have 2 outs if someone already has a better flush. What raise do you suggest? If you just make a pot sized raise you are only leaving yourself T540. I suppose you could make a small raise and hope no more Spades come. Say raise about T400 on flop and all-in on turn. Perhaps a way to buy some chips early? Let's assume that the first bet is on top pair and the second is on the flush draw so that the draw has 8 outs. Then they have about a 16% chance of hitting on the turn so betting half pot is good value if they call. If anyone has nut flush already I assume they will not be so kind as to let you know with a re-raise.

[Poker Jon]

Rick,

I sat there for a while and pretty much made the same calculation.

I agree with your maths, but the only other thing you are not considering, is if they have already made a flush, but a small one (like myself), they could put me on a bigger flush, or even a semi bluff with a lone Ace.

In both these instances they may well fold to the all in re-raise bet. I would certainly think about it, if I were in that position. Especially as it was so early on in the tournament - would you wanna out all your chips in with a 9 high flush for example.

[Squirrel]

The Ks was on the board, so no one can hold it.

I think your play was fine but...........

I'm going to get flamed for this. I slowplay and smoothcall the flop. I hate slowplaying but I like it here.

I call and:

Root for more callers. Many will be drawing dead or near. Anyone with a single spade has only 5 outs, not the "assumed" 9. If the miracle 3 or 8 comes, the As and maybe Qs will give you their stack.

If the turn is anything but a spade that isn't the 3 or 8, I shove on the turn. If it's a crappy spade, I still have plenty of chips to get away from the hand.

If the flop gets reraised behind me, all my money is going in via call or reraise. I would never fold in this spot. $20 internet factor.


This early in a $20 online tourney, I assume the risk for the potential reward.

You have a huge hand now, and either still will, or won't at all on the turn. Yep, I slowplay.

However, like I said, there is nothing wrong with shoving on the flop.

[fnurt]

That's a very interesting idea. With only 5 outs it might very well be right.

You may also be lucky enough to induce the single As to represent the nut flush.

[Squirrel]

When the turn bricks, players with paired hands will bet into you trying to push you off your "draw" they put you on.

These hands would have folded to your all-in flop bet.

[Rickfish]

I agree with the all-in which is why I started the reply to Eric P but sort of digressed when thinking about whether there were any reasons for not going all-in. You're right, I hadn't thought about someone putting down a bigger flush. It is pretty hard to put down a made flush on the flop. If I had a made flush and someone went all-in I would probably think they had top pair and Spade Ace or maybe trips or two pairs.

[banditbdl]

Good point with the 5 outs instead of 9. I'm now inclined to agree that a little slower play is in order to go for a big score on this hand.

[jon_1van]

You said -

"You may also be lucky enough to induce the single As to represent the nut flush. "

I don't think this is a great position for you to be in. If someone bets into you bigtime you don't have much of a lifevest in your small flush + 2outer.

You may also be unlucky enough to see a 4th spade on the board.

In short, I don't believe slow playing is the way to go.

If you are going to take a stab at the pot do so early and with vigor. Just be prepared for the time when you run into the A or Q flush.

[Squirrel]

You lose to the nut flush whether you slowplay or not. Playing with vigor doesn't prevent this.

"You may also be unlucky enough to see a 4th spade on the board"

Yeah, but you'd be lucky enough to still have 1300 in chips.

If you play to avoid going busted on a monster flop like this, you shouldn't be playing small suited connectors.

[Magician]

I would raise just enough that they would call (50-60% of the pot).

If that leaves you with half your chips that's actually good because they might mistake that for weakness and you are more likely to be called on the turn when you put in the remainder of your chips.

There's only a 16% chance that the 4th of a suit appears on the turn so you just have to take that chance.

[Squirrel]

I think this raise gives away your hand more than a call does.

You're right about the numbers.

[Copernicus]

I like a medium raise here...not a slow play, but not all in either. Without looking back I think the flop had straight possibilities. What I want to represent is two pair or a set that is afraid of the straight and flush. However you have to be prepared to laydown if a fourth spade hits.

[DJA]

My thinking on this hand is... if you are behind you will lose all of your money here, and if you are ahead you are quite a ways ahead... so try and trap here.

I believe there are 9 callers for 20 in preflop... say T180. Player bets T180 and someone calls... There is now T540 in the pot. If I make it T600 to go (under a pot sized bet), someone may call... and I want anyone who is behind me to call. Why?

1. A high flush card is a big dog. There are 3 spades on board, you have 2 and he has 1, so there are only 7 cards remaining that improve your opponenents hand, but you make a straight flush with 2 of the 7... he only has 5 cards to hit. He only has a 25% chance of completing if he sees 2 cards. People automatically think they have a flush draw 2:1... not always the case. Now if you bet out on 4th street the rest of your stack... T880 in this case, he really has to think to call.

2. If by some shitty piece of fate the flush comes on 4th street you are last to act, so you have the last decision of what to do. Your opponent goes all-in, you can usually safely fold, your opponent checks, you can check or bet... your decision. Remember you aren't drawing dead yet here either.

I wouldn't go all-in here out of fear people will fold significantly worse hands that you could get them to call with. You won't get anyone with a better hand then yours to fold after going all-in, so you can trap, and you can wait until 4th street to see what may come.

Just My Thoughts,