Hand from a Weak-Tight player

[guppy]

Unfortunately, too often that's me.

Party 3-6 game. 9 players. I don't have any reads on these players, at least before this hand.

I have JJ on the button. 1 limper, MP raise, 1 more limper to me. I don't usually reraise with JJ, especially with a lot of players already in, and just call. SB folds, BB calls, all others call. Sh/could I have reraised here?

5 players see flop of 89Q, two clubs, one heart. One of my jacks is a club, and I have an inside straight draw. Checked to raiser, who bets. Call. I don't raise on my underpair + draw. Everyone calls.

5 players see a blank on the turn (2h) with 7.5 BB in pot. Checked to preflop raiser, who bets. Call in front of me. I fold. BB calls, EP player folds.

My thinking, such as it was, was that I need to hit my inside straight to really like my hand on the river. With a flush draw on the board, it was possible I had only 3 outs. I can't get real excited if I catch one of my jacks since it puts a 4-card straight on the board. And with the possibility the raiser had an overpair, or a hand like AQ, not to mention 3 other players in there with _something_, I wasn't real excited about my jacks unimproved. (If I had tossed in a raise either preflop or on the flop I could have had a better read on this.) Going back and counting bets I probably (barely) had implied odds to make the straight.

Conclusion.

3 players see river card is a 9 (no flush). Checked around. Preflop raiser raised with 67o, and was betting his open-end straight draw. One player had the clubs. Final player won with ATh (ace high), having called the flop with the inside straight and the ace, then picked up a flush draw on the turn.

Criticism solicited.

Should I have plausibly called on the turn given the prior action? If I did call, should I have called a river bet with the jacks?

And of course, should I have tossed in my raise preflop, on the flop, or both, to avoid putting myself in this position?

[AceHigh]

Smooth calling is OK, but I like a 3-bet before the flop, especially if you know the MP is a light raiser. You may not have the best hand, but the limpers have to be losing a lot of EV to you or the other raiser. Plus if you don't flop a Jack you want a raggedy one with low cards, the kind of cards the Blind might call with, so I would try to knock them out.

On the flop, you should think about raising. Since I know the results I would raise, lol /forums/images/icons/wink.gif . You want to knock out the blinds and the early limper if you can. Plus it probably makes it easier to play the turn.

The turn is real tough after the way you played this hand, so I don't think a fold is terrible.

[Dynasty]

My thinking...was...With a flush draw on the board, it was possible I had only 3 outs. I can't get real excited if I catch one of my jacks since it puts a 4-card straight on the board. And with the possibility the raiser had an overpair, or a hand like AQ, not to mention 3 other players in there with _something_, I wasn't real excited about my jacks unimproved.

You have given a great description of biggest hand reading problem new, studious players have. If they are not holding a nearly unbeatable monster, they only put opponents on two types of hands: (1) hands which beat them and (2) hands which are drawing very live against them. In multi-way pots, they often make reads which have themselves drawing dead.

It would not be unsual to see similar posts in which the poster would put player 1 on AA, player 2 on a Ten, and player 3 on KJ thus making JJ drawing completely dead.

BTW, this is why so many people don't like AA and AK in family pots. They only see the hands which can be out to beat them.

[Robk]

Preflop
I think that reraising is the better play, although both raising and calling have advantages. The advantages to 3 betting are that you get more money in the pot with the likely best hand. JJ is very strong, and in these party games the limpers/blinds are liable to have garbage, but certainly aren't going to fold after putting a bet in the pot. Also you can get a free card sometimes. The advantage to just calling is that if you get a favorable flop you can raise the pfr to put pressure on the field, either on the flop or the turn. But in this case I think the strength of JJ combined with the terrible cards your opponents are going to play make a reraise the best play.
Flop
On the flop, you again have a choice between calling and raising. I think that you are neglecting the significant chance your hand is good in your analysis- only a queen overcard falling to your hand is a very good result. However, I don't think a raise on the flop is going to get anyone out. In addition, many turn cards will cripple your hand. So I think that the right play is to wait and see the turn card.
Turn
There are 9.5 BB in the pot after the turn bet and call. If everyone calls (likely) you will be getting 11.5-1 on your turn call. Discounting that for possible folds and raises you are getting about 11-1 on the call- enough to draw at a four outer. In addition your J will be good much of the time. So folding looks like a slight mistake based on your draw alone. But what you are really neglecting is the chance that you're hand is good. You have no reason to think that the callers have you beat. And the pfr could easily have AK/J/T, TT, a flush draw, etc. I think it's reasonable to think your hand is good 20% or so of the time in this spot. And when it is it's going to survive the river card about 60% of the time. That's an additional 12% of the time you are going to win the pot! I think you can expect to win this pot 20% of the time on the turn, so folding is a big mistake.

[Yeknom58]

Hi Guppy,

I met you at the bellagio 8-16, mr. AK.

Well anyway, I don't think the call pre-flop was a total mistake. Although you probably have the best hand here and none of the callers is about to fold but, you can try to knock out the blinds.

On the flop I think not raising here was a total mistake. How are you going to put anyone on any hand if you only call the flop. Then fold on your read on the turn?

Later,

[Ed Miller]

When you 3-bet preflop in these spots instead of playing wimpy poker, you win a lot more of these hands because they are calling your bets and not visa versa. If you 3-bet preflop and raise the flop, you win this hand.

[Ed Miller]

I just figured I'd share this hand with you that I played yesterday. It doesn't really illustrate a point, but it was similar enough and relatively interesting...

5-10 on Party. I have the 8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif in MP. Folded to me, and I raise. CO calls. SB and BB call. 4-handed to the flop.

Flop comes 9 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif. BB bets, I raise, CO calls, SB folds. BB 3-bets and we all call. Turn is the K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif. BB bets, we both call. River is the 5 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif. BB bets, I fold, and the CO calls.

BB has K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif and the CO has A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif.

[bernie]

the hand also plays much easier that way. unless the guy gets wild and 3 bets your flop raise. then it can get a little hairy.

b

[Ed Miller]

unless the guy gets wild and 3 bets your flop raise. then it can get a little hairy.

Much like the dingbat in my hand below did... blech.

[mojolang]

Unfortunately for you, you are in a bad situation with your jacks, you have under the number of people in the pot for good odds at hitting a set and too many people in for it to be likely for your hand t hold up on its own. That being said, considering your position I would still raise preflop most of teh time just to see where you are at. After that I would bet the flop most of the time once again to see where I was at. After that I would most likely take a free card on the turn or maybe fold depending on the action. However, had you played the hand the way I described it is almost certain you would have won the pot. They would have checked to you on the flop, again on the turn after your flop bet and the river.

Joe

[TBone]

I don't know what your experience level is, but I'm a newbie. One thing I've begun to realize is the value of using bets/raises in order to determine where I stand--particularly in online games where pre-flop and flop bets are cheaper. I personally would three bet the jacks pre-flop in that situation. If you get re-raised, you can probably put the person on a higher pair, perhaps AK, or simply suicidal tendencies, but more than likely KK or AA.

Without the pre-flop raise, I think it's all the more important to raise on the flop. You need to find out if MP is ahead of you. If he re-raises, (or any other player for that matter) you can likely think of yourself behind. If they just call, you still can't make much of a read, but you know more than by merely calling the original bet. Raising here also may make THEM think you've flopped a straight, or have the "monsters under the bed" hand (others talk about here) especially w/ two clubs and a possible straight on the board. Since you didn't re-raise pre-flop, they don't have much of a read on you either. Had you raised pre-flop, then raised here, there's a chance you could possibly take the pot right here, although not likely in this scenario w/ the straight, flush draw, etc. (they don't know you're on Jacks--you could be on AQ, possibly KQ, KK, AA yourself--you imagined your opponent(s) on these hands, why also couldn't they imagine you w/ these hands? Because you haven't played aggressively to make them think you'd hold these hands) You may make Q/questionable kickers drop with a raise here, depending on how passive the players are. (I've never played Party 3/6, so can't speak of the passivity of the players there)

I've seen so many pots won with non-top pair, especially in the looser live games here in CO. The more aggressive your play is, I think the more realistic your odds of taking a pot with non-top pair. My pocket 5's got beat tonight in a showdown by the only person that would call my bets. I thought I had the best hand, (nobody had paired up on the flop) so bet my 5's, even though there were a lot of overcards to my pair on the board. Incidentally, the person that beat me had pocket 6's.

T