AA in a big pot

[AlmightyJay]

The flop and river are what I'm interested in here. On the flop, I get check/raised by UTG. He is an aggressive player and would definitely do this with just a Q. So I'm not exactly scared of the c/r. The problem is the pot is 19.5 SB after his bet. If I 3-bet here, I'm still laying over 9:1 to the other players in the hand. Obviously I'm not folding a flush draw here. I decided to wait until the turn to raise UTG's inevitable bet.

However, in retrospect, I think this was NOT the right time to do this. This reminds me of the AA overpair hand from SSH. My equity is not going to drastically change on the turn. I should just 3-bet the flop and get the money in while people are slightly more willing to call, yes?

The river is the other part I'm wondering about. Does anyone bet here? BB is loose and passive until the river, where he has an AF of 5. I've seen him check/raise the river before. Since a flush draw is such a strong possibility for his holdings, can you justify a bet here, or is the free showdown fine?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (10.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (16.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

[crovax4444]

I'm gonna start out of order, but I agree with the river. With your reads of the button, I'd check the river as well.

By defualt, I would have 3-bet the flop. After reading your thoughts on protection and missed bets, I believe that since you can't protect the pot, but you still have an equity advantage, that you should 3-bet the flop still.

This would have also helped you on the turn. If MP1 bets out after you took the lead on the flop, you might want to slow down.

Crovax

[bozlax]

7 players in a pfr'd pot. Flop aggressor might be getting jiggy with top pair, and you have that beat. There isn't going to be anywhere, anytime that you're going to be able to protect your hand. In cases like this, I lean on the bet/raise button until it's two bets to me or the hand is over. If it's ever 2 bets to me, I'll lift my finger and take a look at what's happening.

(Edit: how many kittens have to die? How many? Bet that river!)

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
(Edit: how many kittens have to die? How many? Bet that river!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so maybe this needs a little explanation...your Villan slowed down as soon as you played back at him. You said he'd c/r the flop with a paired queen, and that's a hand that's going to call a bet on the river, but might not bet itself. If he had a five or something better than top pair, he'd have played back at you on the turn. Your extra player has been doing nothing but calling. Therefore, I'd say you lost 2BB by not betting this river.

[tyler_cracker]

[ QUOTE ]
(Edit: how many kittens have to die? How many? Bet that river!)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a situation i always come back to. My default play is to bet, obviously, but getting check/raised here sucks. Shillx just posted in another thread about how much it sucks to bet/call (he was talking about being OOP, though, which is different) and i know that you, bozlax, are a skeptic about bet/fold on the river.

So what to do when that flush card comes in and we've got a bunch of wankers in the pot that might have been waiting for it? Do you check/call OOP? Are you bet/calling in position?

Yes, i know, IT DEPENDS, but feel free to start with this hand in specific.

[AlmightyJay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(Edit: how many kittens have to die? How many? Bet that river!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so maybe this needs a little explanation...your Villan slowed down as soon as you played back at him. You said he'd c/r the flop with a paired queen, and that's a hand that's going to call a bet on the river, but might not bet itself. If he had a five or something better than top pair, he'd have played back at you on the turn. Your extra player has been doing nothing but calling. Therefore, I'd say you lost 2BB by not betting this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

But there's a third player in there who has done nothing but call, call, call. When people do this, and I don't have a specific read on them that they will call down with any piece of the board (etc), I have trouble placing them on a hand and think they have a draw. So when that draw comes in, I freeze up. How do I clear my head of this garbage?

[ZenMusician]

3-bet flop for Christ's sake!

Bet-call river. Some more experienced posters seem
to forget that these idiots are not reading the action
and do not know that we have an OP...HOWEVER, even
a lobotomized mule knows to check raise us when we
have been the aggressor the whole way...the only
quetion then is does he have the flush or 2 raggedy pair?

Over time at these limits it is usually a "bluffed" two pair
representing the flush. Bet-fold here is just stupid, we
are good often enough here to extract value.

-ZEN

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
i know that you, bozlax, are a skeptic about bet/fold on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate bet/fold OOP. This is not OOP.

[ QUOTE ]
So what to do when that flush card comes in and we've got a bunch of wankers in the pot that might have been waiting for it? Do you check/call OOP? Are you bet/calling in position?

Yes, i know, IT DEPENDS, but feel free to start with this hand in specific.

[/ QUOTE ]

My typical line here, against unknowns is bet/call. See my explanatory post, but basically you have one aggressor that shut down when you pushed back on the turn, and a calling station. You have no evidence anywhere that either of these guys was playing to the flush.

Now, four /images/graemlins/diamond.gifs on the board, and I'm not holding the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif then I check it through.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
But there's a third player in there who has done nothing but call, call, call. When people do this, and I don't have a specific read on them that they will call down with any piece of the board (etc), I have trouble placing them on a hand and think they have a draw. So when that draw comes in, I freeze up. How do I clear my head of this garbage?

[/ QUOTE ]

And a large percentage of the time you're right. But if he's calling down with the flush draw, don't you think he'd bet when it hits? And if he's not betting it when it hits, it's (or he's) probably weak, so he's not going to be inclined to c/r it. And the rest of the time he's calling down with top pair or a mid-pp, because that's what he does ALL THE EFFING TIME. IMO.

As for clearing your head, that's an internal dragon you're going to have to slay on your own.

[AlmightyJay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But there's a third player in there who has done nothing but call, call, call. When people do this, and I don't have a specific read on them that they will call down with any piece of the board (etc), I have trouble placing them on a hand and think they have a draw. So when that draw comes in, I freeze up. How do I clear my head of this garbage?

[/ QUOTE ]

And a large percentage of the time you're right. But if he's calling down with the flush draw, don't you think he'd bet when it hits? And if he's not betting it when it hits, it's (or he's) probably weak, so he's not going to be inclined to c/r it. And the rest of the time he's calling down with top pair or a mid-pp, because that's what he does ALL THE EFFING TIME. IMO.

As for clearing your head, that's an internal dragon you're going to have to slay on your own.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you'd think hands like this would help when the results are this:

<font color="#FFFFFF">BB has Qc 4d (two pair, queens and fives).
MP1 has Tc Qs (two pair, queens and fives).
Hero has As Ah (two pair, aces and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 16.75 BB. </font>

Just another thing to add to the list of stuff to work on!

[shant]

You can't fold to a c/r because morons who call down with Q7 and think they rivered the winner might c/r so it's bet/call.

Also, 3-bet el flop.