Multitabling vs 1/2 Tables 6Max

[Isles]

This question is primarily for non students who have the time to play full time.

I understand the logic and success of multi-tabling 6max, but I data mine the hell out of PP (85+% of a given limit), and I rarely see anyone who consistently averages a full buyin a day on a monthly basis. If multi-tablers were doing so well, certainly there should be a lot more of them.

When I multi table it is fairly hectic, reads are weaker, and I can only play for 2-3 hours. When I play a single table my reads are so strong that it really is zero stress and I can play for as long as I want, and I almost always win a buyin within 2-4 hours, but can play longer if needed.

For the rare days I don’t win a buyin, the monthly rake pretty much makes up for it.

So my question is, are most people multi tabling because they are short of time and therefore it is the best way to make the most money? Or is it because you really think it is the most effective approach?

And of you think multi tabling is the most effective approach (provided you had unlimited time to play), where are all of the 1+ buyins a day players?

[Allinlife]

yes multitabling rocks
all the better guys moved up

[Isles]

[ QUOTE ]
all the better guys moved up

[/ QUOTE ]

I also datamine 1000NL 6max on Party. They can't go any higher there.

Besides, that still doesn't answer the question why someone would multi-table a particular limit.

If they are on a limit, and they are multi-tabling, and they aren't averaging more than a buyin a day, my question still stands...

[jkkkk]

I am a student who plays part-time, thought I would answer anyway.

I believe multi-tabling is the most effective way of increasing your earn, however, it takes a multi-tasking ability of being able to easily spot and tell apart good games from bad games. I'm really not sure what my current earn is, but averaging one buy-in a day I would of thought is sustainable.

[Isles]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe multi-tabling is the most effective way of increasing your earn

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are talking about in the shortest amount of time, I agree. But if you are talking in general, I have to disagree.

I disagree because I do not consider myself a great player, just "good/average". There are hundreds of players better than me, but hardly any of them sustain more than a buyin a day on average, and I do.

If I do, why don't hundreds of players better than me do it? If they have a limited time frame, that makes sense. If they multi-table for a living and have unlimited time, then it doesn't.

[Hoopster81]

[ QUOTE ]
And of you think multi tabling is the most effective approach (provided you had unlimited time to play), where are all of the 1+ buyins a day players?

[/ QUOTE ]

I make more than 1 buy-in/day through rake-back alone multi-tabling.

[Isles]

[ QUOTE ]
I make more than 1 buy-in/day through rake-back alone multi-tabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

At 25% RB you would need an MGR of almost $50,000 at 400NL. That seems pretty high /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I have considered the rake, but for myself, it wouldn't be as effective because I do not multi-table optimally.

[jkkkk]

Are you saying that out of your entire collection of databases, you have earnt more than double the PTBB/100 of the best 4-tabler out there over an extended period of time?

[Isles]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that out of your entire collection of databases, you have earnt more than double the PTBB/100 of the best 4-tabler out there over an extended period of time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all. My only claim is that I win on average a buyin a day, and there are very few players winning that or above.

[AcesUp2121]

At this point I go out of my mind if I'm not multi tabling.

[Isles]

[ QUOTE ]
At this point I go out of my mind if I'm not multi tabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree, I got into single tabling only to try to fix a few things. I noticed it was zero stress and the winrate was good, so I stuck with it, although I will play two tables at times.

I agree there are plenty of good reasons to multi-table: boredom, time constraints, etc.

I just came across this while looking over my data and thought it worth an inquiry.

[Hoopster81]

[ QUOTE ]
That seems pretty high

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about 400NL, but 10-tabling the 100s for 5-6 hours a day gets you there.

[Isles]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about 400NL, but 10-tabling the 100s for 5-6 hours a day gets you there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ten tabling 6max? You're definitely one of the exceptions /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[scdavis0]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That seems pretty high

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about 400NL, but 10-tabling the 100s for 5-6 hours a day gets you there.

[/ QUOTE ]

W.A.F.G.

[Hoopster81]

[ QUOTE ]
W.A.F.G.

[/ QUOTE ]

To each his own. I think its a blast.

[GimmeDaWatch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
all the better guys moved up

[/ QUOTE ]

I also datamine 1000NL 6max on Party. They can't go any higher there.

Besides, that still doesn't answer the question why someone would multi-table a particular limit.

If they are on a limit, and they are multi-tabling, and they aren't averaging more than a buyin a day, my question still stands...

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be very, very surprised if you were able to win more playing 1 table than 3-4 over any reasonable period of time, say 1-2 months. You say you easily win a buyin a day single tabling, but you dont mention how long this was for? If you were able to do this consistently for a month or two, your winrate would have to be pretty high. Sure you play better on only 1 table, but I dont think 3 or 4x better, and single-tabling doesn't stop you from running bad, which you evidently havent yet.

[xorbie]

You can definitely make a buy in every two hours 6 tabling 6 max.

[swarm]

Ok let's break this down. Let's say you play 1 table of 1/2. Let's say you play 10 hours a day. You are going to average at max 25 hands per hour. So that means at the end of the day you would play 250 hands.

To earn 1 buy in of 200 dollars you would have to be making 40BB/100 hands played.

I highly doubt you are making 40BB/100 considering a really good win rate at 1/2 would be 10BB/100.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok let's break this down. Let's say you play 1 table of 1/2. Let's say you play 10 hours a day. You are going to average at max 25 hands per hour. So that means at the end of the day you would play 250 hands.

To earn 1 buy in of 200 dollars you would have to be making 40BB/100 hands played.

I highly doubt you are making 40BB/100 considering a really good win rate at 1/2 would be 10BB/100.

[/ QUOTE ]

25 hands per hour? I get more than that playing live.
I get about 60/hr playing full ring and about 85/hr playing 6 max.

[scdavis0]

Trying to convince us that playing one quarter of the hands at the same limit will lead to a higher hourly rate is a really tough sell.

[Isles]

[ QUOTE ]
I would be very, very surprised if you were able to win more playing 1 table than 3-4 over any reasonable period of time, say 1-2 months.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am just as surprised as you, that is why I am asking the question.

[ QUOTE ]
You say you easily win a buyin a day single tabling, but you dont mention how long this was for?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said I could "easily" win a buyin. I didn't try to imply that at all. I simply said I have averaged about a buyin a day.

I multitabled before that, and I have played quite a while, so I understand bad runs. While I have not had any brutal week long runs lately, I haven't run extremely hot either, just plodding along while I try to improve aspects of my game.

[Isles]

[ QUOTE ]
Trying to convince us that playing one quarter of the hands at the same limit will lead to a higher hourly rate is a really tough sell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said it will lead to a higher hourly rate. The very first sentence of my post says this question is directed at those who can play full time.

I also explained that while I can multi-table for 2-3 hours, it is more stressfull and that is about as long as I can play. But when single tabling I have much better reads and almost zero stress, allowing me to play for longer periods of time if needed to reach my quota.

For those on a limited time frame, multi-tabling is by far the way to go, I don't know how many times I need to say that.

This post is not about multi-tabling within a short time frame or any other constraint.

It is just a simple question: If there are so many successful multi-tablers, why aren't they making more than a "good/average" player who primarily single tables?

[iceman5]

There arent very many good players. Thats your answer.

[pokerjoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And of you think multi tabling is the most effective approach (provided you had unlimited time to play), where are all of the 1+ buyins a day players?

[/ QUOTE ]

I make more than 1 buy-in/day through rake-back alone multi-tabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would have to be 16 tabling 200NL for around 8 hours a day to do this.

I think I found the secret to how are so many people are getting rich in online poker....lying.

edit (I am just being a jerk here, probably was honest mistake)

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
You can definitely make a buy in every two hours 6 tabling 6 max.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you play around 300 hands/hr 4-tabling (actually like 3.5 tabling) and make 8 ptbb/100, you will make 96 big blinds (or about 1 buyin) for every 2 hours.

if you play 1 table and manage, say, 80 hands/hr, you need to make 30 ptbb/100 to make the same amount per hour.

[Isles]

[ QUOTE ]
There arent very many good players. Thats your answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess so, but then multi-table? Why not improve your game? I guess it is just the time constraint issue.

Thanks for all of the replies.

[Isles]

[ QUOTE ]
if you play 1 table and manage, say, 80 hands/hr, you need to make 30 ptbb/100 to make the same amount per hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said it will lead to a higher hourly rate.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you play 1 table and manage, say, 80 hands/hr, you need to make 30 ptbb/100 to make the same amount per hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said it will lead to a higher hourly rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

what does "effective" mean in your OP if not "wins the most"? have you tried multitabling for 2-3 hours, taking an hour off, and going back?

[Isles]

The term "effective approach" referred to all apsects, including the amount of time you can play.

For example, is it more effective to multi-table for 2-3 hours or play a single table for 6 hours? You do not have to play 6 hours every day. Many days I win a couple of buyins in a short amount of time and quit.

That is why my first sentence stated it was addressed to those who could put in whatever time was necessary, and it's why I clarified many times that for anyone with a time constraint, multi-tabling is definitely preferred.

[Hattifnatt]

1-tabling rules.

My experience is that you develop much faster as a player when playing only one table after coming to a certain level (after ABC). I used to play 3-6 tables and thought it was very boring to only play one when I started testing that out. But its not boring at all if you analyze what happens all the time...

[Isles]

[ QUOTE ]
But its not boring at all if you analyze what happens all the time...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the main thing I am working on, analyzing a hand whenever there is a raise pf.

Too often when I am in a hand I still play in "auto mode" instead of going by reads.

I use the off hands to practice staying focused for when I am in a hand. It is too bloody easy for your mind to stray.

Funny thing is hand reading isn't the hard part, simply staying focused so you can read is. At least for me.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
I almost always win a buyin within 2-4 hours...

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/diamond.gif This is not an impressive earn rate to an expert multitabler.
/images/graemlins/diamond.gif I don't believe you average 20 PTBB/100 between NL 200 and NL 600 while playing 1 table. If you do, please post PT screen shots. Until then, I'll assume you have been running hot and hope it is because you have been playing one table because that would mean it is sustainable.

[Isles]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe you average 20 PTBB/100 between NL 200 and NL 600 while playing 1 table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ack, that's where the confusion is coming from. Yeah sorry, don't know why I said I always win within 2-4 hours.

I got that number because most days I do not put in an all day session. Plus, as I stated, I do play 2 tables a bit, which is why the title of the post says "1/2 tables".

[scdavis0]

My winrate is about a half buy-in per hour. I'd guess that many other players are about there.

[teamdonkey]

i think most are missing his (poorly worded) point: a great hourly earn doesn't mean much if the style severely limits your hours.

why is it common for online pros to only put in 20-30 hours a week playing, when other full time jobs are more like 40-50 hours/week? It's not because they're lazy. A more stressful style of play leads to less time playing.

Taking a more long term look, compare two players of equal skill: Player A 4-tables 25 hours a week, Player B 2-tables 40 hours a week. At the end of the year Player A will almost certainly have made more money, and had more free time on his hands. He'll also be more apt to burn out, and his game will probably have improved less than Player B.

I wonder if in the very long term NOT multitabling will actually be more profitable.

[scdavis0]

The guy 2 tabling for 40 hours a week is way more likely to burn out than the guy 4 tabling 25 hours a week.

His point is flawed.

Regardless I wouldn't go pro unless I could maintain a high quality of life on 15 hours of play a week and 40 weeks per year.

[teamdonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless I wouldn't go pro unless I could maintain a high quality of life on 15 hours of play a week and 40 weeks per year.

[/ QUOTE ]

why is that?

[scdavis0]

Cuz it's not an easy gig and the dream of playing pro for me is the freedom.

[Isles]

[ QUOTE ]
i think most are missing his (poorly worded) point: a great hourly earn doesn't mean much if the style severely limits your hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are referring to me, that wasn't my point at all. I simply stated that hardly anyone averages a buyin a day. If there are so many successful multi-tablers, this seems odd.

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]


If you are referring to me, that wasn't my point at all. I simply stated that hardly anyone averages a buyin a day. If there are so many successful multi-tablers, this seems odd.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not odd at all. Few people are winning players. However, I think it's impossible for a good multitabler not to average a buy in per day at the very least.

[Morrek]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


If you are referring to me, that wasn't my point at all. I simply stated that hardly anyone averages a buyin a day. If there are so many successful multi-tablers, this seems odd.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not odd at all. Few people are winning players. However, I think it's impossible for a good multitabler not to average a buy in per day at the very least.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah 3-4 tabling I can fairly easily average 2-3 buyins per day. But to the OP I do hear ya about being able to 2table for more hours / day compared to 4tabling, I can easily 2table even if I'm tired and still play pretty good, which is hard(er) on 4tables

[xorbie]

I can 4-6 table 4 hours a day no problem, but this may include splitting it into a few 2 hour shifts.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]


If you are talking about in the shortest amount of time, I agree. But if you are talking in general, I have to disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Offcourse time is the most important factor. $/hr is all that really matters.

[beset7]

Most people suck at poker.

How many tables are you datamining and how many hands do you have your datamined database? I've been making 1/2 to 3/4 buyin an hour 4-tabling 6max for quite some time and I know a few others who do to.

[Morrek]

[ QUOTE ]
I can 4-6 table 4 hours a day no problem, but this may include splitting it into a few 2 hour shifts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but there are 24 hours in a day, you're awake ~16, so teoretically you should be able to play more than 4 hours / day

[Hoopster81]

[ QUOTE ]
You would have to be 16 tabling 200NL for around 8 hours a day to do this.

I think I found the secret to how are so many people are getting rich in online poker....lying.

edit (I am just being a jerk here, probably was honest mistake)

[/ QUOTE ]


http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2300/214pe.jpg

OK, smart guy. My PT stats since 12/1/05. I have played 5 nights including tonight. My rakeback for that time is ~$470. That is about 1 buy/in per day for me. And I promise I am not playing 16 tables 8 hours a day.

[scdavis0]

You realize you are using the wrong rake number right? That's the total rake taken out of every single hand dealt... not your share.

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
You realize you are using the wrong rake number right? That's the total rake taken out of every single hand dealt... not your share.

[/ QUOTE ]

10,081/5.46*.25= roughtly 470

[scdavis0]

thanks.. wow 18k+ hands since december 1st is pretty sick

i have like 6.5k and i thought i was a sick puppy

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]

OK, smart guy. My PT stats since 12/1/05. I have played 5 nights including tonight. My rakeback for that time is ~$470. That is about 1 buy/in per day for me. And I promise I am not playing 16 tables 8 hours a day.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes but you still have nearly 19k hands in 5 days. that's putting in decent hours, 8 tables type numbers.

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks.. wow 18k+ hands since december 1st is pretty sick

i have like 6.5k and i thought i was a sick puppy

[/ QUOTE ]

But he is playing 10 tables... and pretty much relying on rakeback.

[Sephus]

no wonder his vpip is like 14

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
no wonder his vpip is like 14

[/ QUOTE ]

Surprised its that high.

[Sephus]

it may not be, thats based on like 600 hands.

this is pretty meaningless without how many hours you've played.

[Hoopster81]

[ QUOTE ]
Surprised its that high.

[/ QUOTE ]

17.5/10 actually

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Surprised its that high.

[/ QUOTE ]

17.5/10 actually

[/ QUOTE ]

On ten tables...something isn't right here.

[Hoopster81]

[ QUOTE ]
yes but you still have nearly 19k hands in 5 days. that's putting in decent hours, 8 tables type numbers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said it wasn't, I was just disputing the fact that it takes 16 tables 8 hours a day to make 1 buy-in at 25% RB.

[Hoopster81]

[ QUOTE ]
this is pretty meaningless without how many hours you've played.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never play more than 6 hours/day

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is pretty meaningless without how many hours you've played.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never play more than 6 hours/day

[/ QUOTE ]

are you always this dense

[Hoopster81]

[ QUOTE ]
are you always this dense

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, sorry. Did you need me to do the math for you?

(5 days) * (6 hrs/day) = you idiot

[Voltron87]

how does saying "I never play more than 6 hours" the same thing as saying "ive played 6 hours a day for 5 days"?

so you make 15$ an hour from rakeback. uhhh, thats not very much at all and youre stunting your growth as a player so when the game get harder as the will over time you will suffer.

[Hoopster81]

[ QUOTE ]
how does saying "I never play more than 6 hours" the same thing as saying "ive played 6 hours a day for 5 days"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you even read the thread?


[ QUOTE ]
so you make 15$ an hour from rakeback. uhhh, thats not very much at all and youre stunting your growth as a player so when the game get harder as the will over time you will suffer.

[/ QUOTE ]

uhhhh, that's great, buddy. I was never bragging about some great winrate. I was simply responding to

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0#Post4121931 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4121931&an=0&page=0#Post 4121931)


Thanks

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]
Cuz it's not an easy gig and the dream of playing pro for me is the freedom.

[/ QUOTE ]
Playing like 4 hours * 6 days/week, I can tell you, I haven't ever felt as free before.
And the jobs I had prior, haven't been too much of a pain either.

[vanHelsing]

Once I have mastered a level, I use to multitable it to death up to the point, where I feel ready to move up further.
Then I go back to 1/2 tabling and that's the phase where I really learn something about the game. Then the cycle starts again.

For a number of reasons, I guess, a full time player should always aim at moving up, which usually won't work when always multi tabling.

And yes, I make more than 1 buyin/day on average multi tabling.

I think you just didn't consider that people don't play every day.

[Hattifnatt]

An another advice from mine is to always try to put players on hands/hand distributions even when you are not involved.

[Isles]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you just didn't consider that people don't play every day.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the answer. You're right, I didn't consider it. I just noticed the numbers and posted the question.

If you assume that people play around 22 days a month, then there are quite a few doing a buyin a day.

[swarm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you just didn't consider that people don't play every day.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the answer. You're right, I didn't consider it. I just noticed the numbers and posted the question.

If you assume that people play around 22 days a month, then there are quite a few doing a buyin a day.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why measuring by anything other than BB/100 is silly.

I have no doubt a same skilled single tabler will make more BB's/100. However the difference will never outweigh the $/hr increase of a similar skilled multi-tabler.

[george w of poker]

where are y'all playing that you get rb?

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]

This is why measuring by anything other than BB/100 is silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Measuring by BB/100 is silly, when multitabling.

BB/100 for a 1/2 tabler is bound to be higher than BB/100 of a 4-6 tabler.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
where are y'all playing that you get rb?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Big_Jim]

There are quire a few sites...

Pretty sure 2+2 has a bunch of ads for sites that provide this. Not to mention the Affiliates/Rakeback (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=rakeback) forum.