Non-Aggressive

[charlie_t_jr]

I've read "sometimes you have to show'em your passive side".

SB is a passive calling station. EP has 2+2 numbers, but does open limp.

.50/100 full.
EP limps, couple of folds, I raise in LP with 99. SB and EP call.

Flop: JJ5 rags.

SB checks, EP bets, I call. SB calls.

Turn: 3

SB checks, EP bets, I call, SB calls.

River: 8

SB checks, EP bets, I call, SB folds.

I'm at work without a hand history so I may be off with the finer details. The board was ragged with all cards lower than my 99's save for the JJ.

Standard? Too passive, do I find a raise anywhere?

[@bsolute_luck]

i raise the flop simply because there are a lot of overcards i don't want to see and pushing SB out would be nice so i can take a free river card is necessary.

[Thebram]

...grunch...
I'd raise the flop. While he may open limp with a few hands from utg that include a jack, why would he bet into the pfr here?

I'd put him on mid pockets or maybe a hand with several weak draws like backdoor straight+backdoor flush+OC.

Regardless of what he has, clearing out the SB with a flop raise can only help your hand. It may even get you a free turn or showdown if you decide you need it.

Plus, the SB coldcalling here again is a pretty clear indicator that your 9s are beat, and that you can slow down/get out.


So, how did I do with my first grunch?
Seemed like an easy one, and I may have gotten too wordy /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[charlie_t_jr]

[ QUOTE ]
...So, how did I do with my first grunch?
Seemed like an easy one, and I may have gotten too wordy /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty good I'd say.

I don't why exactly I took this line, other than I wasn't too concerned with the SB. I kind of thought about being WA/WB with SB padding the pot. But if both have at least 6 outs against me, I guess I'm not that "way ahead".

[PokerSlut]

*grunch*

I think I raise the flop here. It is likely that you are facing overcards to your 9's, and it is possible you are facing as many as 4 different overcards, so I think you want to raise to eliminate at least SB from the pot to improve your chances of winning. On the flop there's 8 small bets in the pot when the action gets to you so by just calling you are giving good odds to SB if they are drawing to overcards. Raise here and take control of the pot.

I like to raise here on the flop. No reason to put EP on a jack (no reason he couldn't have one either), and he may be bluffing with the pair on the board.

[goofball]

All-

what the hell is grunch?


charlie-

Everyone is right, you should raise teh flop always always always. Not raising is a pretty big mistake IMO. Raising makes SB fold a 6 out hand (and very occaisonally a better hand if he's weak). Raising forces the other player to act again and communicate with you more, raising potentially gives you initiative and the option to play very well on later streets. Raising is so so so much better than calling here.

Here's some questions for everyone. Just to make you think...

If you raise the flop, do you plan to call a 3bet?

If you do you could have got to the river for the same price.

We are raising, so that if we are ahead, we fold out SB's overcards. But if we are ahead, what does EP have? and will SB fold for two but not one?

If you raise, both call and the turn is the A, K, Q or T and it's checked to you, what do you do?

You raise the flop, they call. The turn is a rag. They check, you bet, they call. The river is a rag. One of them donks, you....?

[jrz1972]

Raise the flop. You do not want SB hanging around with QT or whatever.

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise the flop, do you plan to call a 3bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends but folding isn't an option I choose against all but the tightest of opponents. Against many aggros I'd cap. If you cap the flop and then just lead right into you on the turn you can fold. Capping means I'll either be folding confidently or have it checked to me on the turn where I can decide whether or not to bet. Always nice to have it checked to you on the turn in a spot like that.

[ QUOTE ]
If you do you could have got to the river for the same price

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure but what do we care abotu seeing a river. If we're behind we're way behind and it doesn't much matter if we get to see another card. Getting the small blind to fold has a lot more value then getting an extra card.

[ QUOTE ]
But if we are ahead, what does EP have? and will SB fold for two but not one?

[/ QUOTE ]

SB called before the flop but remember we raised. If he's passive enough he coul dhave AK/AQ/KQ here. He could also have AT/KT/QT which are basically the same as far as our hand is concerned. Callers love to call with overcards for one bet, but they almost never do it fro two. What kind of hands could SB fold for two that won't fold for one? Every hand that has 6 outs against us here.

What does EP have? Loosk like 77 or something to me. A5s or 65s maybe. A marginal hand that doesn't beat ours but has showdown value. Unlikely he's folding it and also unlikely it beats us. Yes he could easily have open limped with JT/J9/QJ whatever, but we'll find out about that soon enouhg won't we /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise, both call and the turn is the A, K, Q, or T and it's checked to you, what do you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd check behind. First, SB checkcoldcalling 2 on a rainbow board screams monster, second those cards are bad for my hand against their respective ranges.

[ QUOTE ]
You raise the flop, they call. The turn is a rag. THey check, you bet,they call. The river is a rag. One of them donks, you...?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the rags, and depends on who donked.

If the SB checked and EP donked I'd call(i'd even consider raisng but probably end up calling). If SB donked it would just be way too weird. If EP called (despite me still to act) I'd have a tough time calling and I think a fold is correct but I could be swayed. If SB donked adn EP called then that line is just way too weird for me to fold. Seriously, who takes the checkcoldcall, checkcall, donk line on a completely drawless board? What hand could you reasonably justify playing that way?

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]

We are raising, so that if we are ahead, we fold out SB's overcards. But if we are ahead, what does EP have? and will SB fold for two but not one?

[/ QUOTE ]

SB will fold OCs for 2 but not one, which we would like him to. EP could easily have a 5, a lower pp, or overcards.

[ QUOTE ]

If you raise, both call and the turn is the A, K, Q or T and it's checked to you, what do you do?


[/ QUOTE ]
bet as the last money you're putting into the pot

[ QUOTE ]

You raise the flop, they call. The turn is a rag. They check, you bet, they call. The river is a rag. One of them donks, you....?

[/ QUOTE ]
I probably would call, but I'm not quite sure if this is correct.

[Thebram]

I was looking forward to responding with my own answers, but it looks like you nailed it.

[goofball]

heh, you still can. YOu probably don't agree with eevery single thing I said.

[shant]

Isn't there a stickied WA/WB thread? People really need to look over what a WA/WB situation is because it is a dangerous line to use when you are missing the WA part.

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't there a stickied WA/WB thread? People really need to look over what a WA/WB situation is because it is a dangerous line to use when you are missing the WA part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2206499&page=1&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=all&vc=1)

agreed with everything people have said, raise the flop and the hand plays differently