NLHE Party, QQ in BB vs. a raise

[Jamie Collins]

NL HE Single table tourny on Party. Blinds 25-50. 7 players. I have T1500. I am in the BB with QhQs.

UTG raise to 100. UTG has T1300. UTG seems to be a reasonable player but who knows after only 3 orbits.

UTG+1 calls - he now has T200 left. No read.

All else fold.

1) Your move Preflop and why.


Now assume, rightly or wrongly, you just call the raise.


Flop comes Kh Kd Jh

2) What's your best play from here?

Thanks,
Jamie

[cferejohn]

First of all, I'd raise it to about 400 pre-flop. If UTG comes back all-in, I'd probably agonize for a while and eventually lay it down.

That's an ugly flop for you, no doubt. However, if no one else has a king, its pretty scary for them too. I'd lead out 250-300 on the flop. That's the last money I'm putting into the pot (unless I get called and a queen falls, of course). If someone comes over the top either a) they have a king or b) they made a great play and you have to tip your cap nd give them the pot. If someone calls and then bets when you check to them, same thing.

Its not a fun situation to be in though (though in point of fact it is better than if a single king or ace fell - this way there are only 2 cards they could have that could beat you and you are still drawing to the same 2 outs). That's one of the reasons I pop it pre-flop. I'd rather get my money in when I'm pretty confident I'm a favorite than when I don't really know at all.

Check-fold would not be the worst option in the world. The blinds are low, the pot is not all that big, and there is plenty of play left.

[JayKon]

You have to raise in the BB here. You need to have something to work with to determine your opponents cards. With your call, the pot is T325. Sometimes, I'll make a pot-sized raise here, or more. However, with a short-stack, you are probably going to get called for his last T200. Still, I would like to get the UTG to fold pre-flop.

The problem here is a classic one, if UTG calls a big raise, then he is in a big pot and less likely to fold, you could easily have to commit your stack. If you don't raise (which you didn't) you see a flop three ways with a hand that likes head-up.

Now, three orbits is enough for me to get some idea how someone plays. In 21 hands (you said 7 handed), you havn't seen him play at all?

Anyway, I'm probably going to raise to T500, over betting the pot in hopes of getting it head up between my QQ and the all-in - maybe even taking it down without a flop.

The point being, pre-flop play radically changes the dynamics of flop play.

Jay

BTW, I'm firing T500 on the flop if called and fold to further action unless I hit hard on the turn.

[Jamie Collins]

Thanks for the response cferejohn.

"First of all, I'd raise it to about 400 pre-flop. If UTG comes back all-in, I'd probably agonize for a while and eventually lay it down. "

I think if I raised to 400 and UTG re-popped, laying down QQ preflop on Party would be very difficult - even with the presence of the probable all-in. But I think it's close.

Leading out on the flop I think is a good suggestion. However I think if UTG had AJ he would call. And then that would put me in a difficult situation on the turn - one in which I would probably check-fold. But that's probably the only hand he would call the flop with that I beat. So all-in-all probably a good play.

Regards,
Jamie

[Jamie Collins]

Thanks for the response JayKon.

You wrote: "Now, three orbits is enough for me to get some idea how someone plays. In 21 hands (you said 7 handed), you havn't seen him play at all? "

I did have some idea - he seemed reasonable. To me that's about all the detail you can garner from 3 orbits: the player is either very loose, somewhat loose, reasonable, tight.

You wrote: "The problem here is a classic one, if UTG calls a big raise, then he is in a big pot and less likely to fold, you could easily have to commit your stack. If you don't raise (which you didn't) you see a flop three ways with a hand that likes head-up."

- which was exactly my thinking. With the presence of a probable all-in, with what hands does it start to become
-EV to raise? i.e do you re-raise with Jacks? tens? fours?

If I can play better than my opponents post-flop, I should try not to commit a good chunk or all of my stack pre-flop with a vulnerable hand - right?

(Obviously ALL hands are vulnerable but QQ more so in this spot I believe.)

Regards,
Jamie

[JayKon]

Well, I maintain that QQ is a very good hand here. I beleive it is worth some risk. While I can't calculate +/- EV for you, I do know that if you don't re-raise you're denying yourself a chance to win the pot right there.

If, however, your talking about out-playing opponents post-flop, you're really saying you'll fold when an A/K hits and you check.

Perhaps I have a little more gamble than most, but I would much rather not see the flop with the UTG in. If, however, you respect his raise that much - fold now and surrender the blind.

I think most everyone here will agree that it's a pump-it, or dump-it situtation. I prefer the pump-it. If I get beat, I get beat.

Also, I saved half of my stack for a decent sized all-in bet on the flop for a second chance at making UTG "make a good laydown".

I understand you want a clearer answer, maybe one of the others can help.

Jay