standard small overpair?

[schwza]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1000)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t1000)
MP2 (t1000)
MP3 (t1000)
CO (t1000)
Button (t1000)
SB (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">8 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t55</font>, SB calls t40.

Flop: (t110) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t80</font>, SB calls t80.

Turn: (t270) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t270) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t175</font>, Hero calls t175.

Final Pot: t620

[bluefeet]

You have to pop this turn t200. The K certainly didn't help a draw. A draw, or a 'piece' is more indicative of his check-call on the flop. It is too infrequent that his 'piece' is precisely K3/K8/K9 for you not to lead here again.

By shutting down, he has a free pass to follow-up on his flop resistance, having correctly reasoned you gave up.

Lead 200 more on the turn, check behind on the river.


Edit: Yes, I call this river lead

[schwza]

if he c/r's the turn, what's your line?

[bluefeet]

I dump it for sure. No reason now, after having completed, c-called the flop, c-raised your now 3rd declaration of hand strength...to NOT put him on a made hand (2pair, baby set, heck maybe even TP w/ this K).

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I dump it for sure. No reason now, after having completed, c-called the flop, c-raised your now 3rd declaration of hand strength...to NOT put him on a made hand (2pair, baby set, heck maybe even TP w/ this K).

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, just making sure.

one reason to check the turn is that it helps you extract a bet on the river from a hand like 8x that would fold the turn. you also don't get c/r'ed off the hand by a strangely played 9x or draw. it's true that giving a free card to a possible draw sucks, but i think keeping the pot small and preventing yourself from getting blown off the hand is worth it.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dump it for sure. No reason now, after having completed, c-called the flop, c-raised your now 3rd declaration of hand strength...to NOT put him on a made hand (2pair, baby set, heck maybe even TP w/ this K).

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, just making sure.

one reason to check the turn is that it helps you extract a bet on the river from a hand like 8x that would fold the turn. you also don't get c/r'ed off the hand by a strangely played 9x or draw. it's true that giving a free card to a possible draw sucks, but i think keeping the pot small and preventing yourself from getting blown off the hand is worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

i understand the thinking, but the occasions when we get pushed off a hand, is generally when we indicate weakness. not when continuing to represent a hand. sure it happens, but one coming over top in this scenario is much more likely holding a real hand. this is why we have to continue on the turn.

if you don't continue...what do you do when he pushes this river?

we've reasoned that the turn card is very unlikely to help him. but you have a very vulnerable hand. one that could be overcome on the river. you have to charge him. it's not like we're holding AA, or a set, and we WANT him to lead the river for us. 'value checking' is rarely applicable with a hand of your modest strength. more so because of the draw friendly flop, and his interest in such.

the true value move is to lead again on this not-so-scary turn, charge him to chase the OESD, charge him for the 8. if anything you checking the turn could freeze him on the river (assuming you're doing this for 'value'). a rag flop, that likely didn't help a strong Ace PF raiser...he calls with a piece. now comes an over to the flop. all of a sudden you slowdown. granted a conscious observer might note that you should lead your now AK again vs. setting a trap, because of the draw. but many that shouldn't have proceeded this far won't 'bite' on the river regardless.

you basically spent 200 chips regardless. spending them on the turn will do two things for you. it will pick up the pot there when a piece gives up. it will provide the 'value' you want when he continues with a draw, or with the misguided understanding that he still might be ahead with his piece. he might also come over - most times with a hand that beats you.

by checking the turn, you don't gain anymore chips when he checks the river (because you are checking behind), you ONLY gain chips when he leads into you - AND - you still have the better hand. the same guy that will bluff into you (with his piece, or MISSED draw) is the same guy that will call your VALUE BET on the turn.

ps. if he DOES have the hand at the turn, you've lost 200chips. no more so than him having it at showdown when you call behind his river lead.

[schwza]

nice post. you're doing a good job convincing me. there are a few other things:

[ QUOTE ]
if you don't continue...what do you do when he pushes this river?

[/ QUOTE ]

this would be a big overbet. in my experience this almost never happens with any holding. i'd probably fold if he did it.

[ QUOTE ]
if anything you checking the turn could freeze him on the river (assuming you're doing this for 'value').

[/ QUOTE ]

my plan was to put in exactly one bet on the river. if he checks i'll try to squeeze some value out of 9x or 8x.

[ QUOTE ]
the same guy that will bluff into you (with his piece, or MISSED draw) is the same guy that will call your VALUE BET on the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

that's not totally true about the piece. i think there are hands that will call a bet on the river or lead the river but would fold to a turn bet. most of these hands have 5 outs (8x or bottom pair), so i'm happy to give them one shot at a 5 outer if they'll put in a bet on the river they wouldn't on the turn.

there's the minor issue that if i'm behind, checking let's me take a 2-outer rather than bet-folding.

very good post though. i'll post results at some point after somebody else gets in the thread.

[mlagoo]

i agree with a lot of what bluefeet has said, and you guys are having a good discussion, i dont want to muddy it up.

edit: nevermind. the pf raise is standard. didnt see it was just the sb in the pot. im gonna go back to my hole now.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
my plan was to put in exactly one bet on the river. if he checks i'll try to squeeze some value out of 9x or 8x.



[/ QUOTE ]

this would be a mistake. we didn't do any defining on the turn. with his PF call, there are technically hands that beat us (possibly looking to c-raise the turn, who knows). checking behind on most ANY river is the proper thing to do, having not continued the lead on the turn.

[Raiser]

I play the hand exactly like you did. Mainly because I don't want to get blown away by a CR on the turn. I'm still pretty sure I'm ahead on the turn, but not enough to call a CR from a hand like A /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, so I just want to keep the pot relatively small and will call a normal sized bet on the river.

[xJMPx]

[ QUOTE ]
but id like to talk about the pf raise. i dont think this is standard. and im not sure i like it. im not one of the hardnose, never raise TT in level 1 guys, but I think raising it out of the BB here is building a big pot out of position with a difficult hand. I think the hand is a lot more "manageable" if you don't raise pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's just in this pot with the SB, so he has position. I think a pre-flop raise in this spot is pretty standard.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but id like to talk about the pf raise. i dont think this is standard. and im not sure i like it. im not one of the hardnose, never raise TT in level 1 guys, but I think raising it out of the BB here is building a big pot out of position with a difficult hand. I think the hand is a lot more "manageable" if you don't raise pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's just in this pot with the SB, so he has position. I think a pre-flop raise in this spot is pretty standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, see edited post above. im a donk.

carry on!

I like the preflop raise just because a continuation bet after the raise usually leads to your opponent folding. I think he called you with middle pair here or some garbage honestly... i mean if u held an 8 or 9 and someone raised preflop... he probably put u on AJ and trying to take down the pot after you missed.

I think your 10's are ahead and i would continue to bet untill the river... the only hand you can get in trouble with i believe would be a loose post flop call with KQ or a big pair(unlucky) that didnt want to push preflop into BB so he could try and trap you. I'd say 95% of the time.. u have the best hand after the flop and 70% of the time by the river with those cards out there.(runner-runner flush/straight/K)

As far as how to bet this.. i would bet the flop.. maybe even over-bet the flop so if he thinks its a steal and moves in with his 8 or 9... IF he folds his 8 or 9... big deal.. u took down the pot with a decent hand. I like to play pretty tight-aggressive the first 3 rounds. Thats why i would overbet the flop, and pick more comfortable spots later on.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my plan was to put in exactly one bet on the river. if he checks i'll try to squeeze some value out of 9x or 8x.



[/ QUOTE ]

this would be a mistake. we didn't do any defining on the turn. with his PF call, there are technically hands that beat us (possibly looking to c-raise the turn, who knows). checking behind on most ANY river is the proper thing to do, having not continued the lead on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand this post.

it's absolutely true that i didn't do any defining on the turn, which is exactly what i want. i've obscured my hand so it looks like AJ or total air, which is why 55 or 78 will call a bet on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
with his PF call, there are technically hands that beat us (possibly looking to c-raise the turn, who knows).

[/ QUOTE ]

what? you think there a lot of hands that miss their turn c/r and then try for a river c/r? that's pretty rare.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
what? you think there a lot of hands that miss their turn c/r and then try for a river c/r? that's pretty rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'll give you that one. close to never. trying to bolster my arguement for for leading the turn a little too hard i guess.

so just to summarize, by checking the turn you're looking to...

a) get him to lead the river for you, or
b) get him to check-call


how often do these happen?

compare to how often these very hands call your turn lead?

your arguement is one of 'value'. do you see your line getting more value than mine? if so, is it enough so that you can AFFORD TO GIVE THE FREE RIVER CARD?

you have to be careful what you wish for.

how eagar are you to call his lead, or bet behind when an Ace, Q, J, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, or now another spade not mentioned?
calling...sure, reluctantly prehaps, depending on exactly what card it is. leading behind? not advised.

______________________
lead flop
check behind turn
call modest river lead
______________________

this line is perfect had your hand been A8 here (river call a little suspect, but you get the point.

we check behind the turn, looking for a cheap showdown when we can no longer hold that our hand is MOST LIKELY ahead. IF we believe that our hand IS most likely a head, we continue to bet for value, charge for draws. i don't think that either of us are debating the value of your hand at the turn. you must lead again.