Explain something to me regarding Juice....

[DalaiLama]

I don't know if I just haven't paid attention much lately or what, but several books (sportsbetting & bodog) are charging ridiculous juice lately. Rather than move the number, they just jack up the juice on the heavy side. I saw the Jets this weekend -130 +- whatever the spread was on both books. I know that when a book moves the line they increase their exposure, but damn. I haven't been over to betonsports.com in while. Do they still have 5% juice on Thursday nights (they used to run something like this several years ago). Any other recommend sites that I won't get raped at?

[ohnonotthat]

As far as I know, BETONSPORTS charges reduced juice (-105) at ALL times.

CascadeSports does the same.

*

You should also look at bettrojan . . . I believe they are new so you might want to check on their reputation but the days of "take the money and run (aka close shop)" are pretty much over so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[tech]

This is pretty much the industry standard now.

[Post-Oak]

You are not understanding what you were seeing. When you see an NFL team at -130 on the spread, the other team is going to be paying better than even money. The reason they would put up a -130/+110 (-130/+105, etc.) is because they are getting unbalanced action but do not want to move off of a "magic number".

In other words, in NFL betting, the magic numbers are so important that they need more flexibility in setting the line than just moving the spread. A move from 2.5 to 3.5 (same for 3.5 to 3, etc.) can be disastrous for a book. Instead, they change the "juice" (different meaning here than how you are using it, which is what is confusing you).

Here's a simple example. I am inventing these numbers out of whole cloth, just so you understand. Let's say the Jets open as -3 home favorites vs. the 49ers. The line might look like this:

Jets -3
49ers +3

and the -110 on both sides is understand. Now lets say that they books start taking more action on the Jets than the 49ers. Well, they don't want to move off of the 3, because that number is so important for NFL betting. So instead they change the line like this:

Jets -3 -120
49ers +3 +100

They are making it more attractive to be on the 49ers, in order to better balance the action. They are NOT charging more juice. -120/+100 is a dime line, just like -110/-110 is. Now some of these books get may get greedy and sneaky and do stuff like this:

Jets -3 -120
49ers +3 -110

This is higher a higher vig. The problem here is that there is another meaning associated with the word "juice" and this is what is confusing you. You are using "juice" to mean vigorish in your post, and so the answer is that the -130 does not represent a higher vig. -130/+110 is the same vig as -110/-110.

I hope that clears it up.


As some other posters pointed out, some books do offer nickel lines. In this case the line would look like

Jets -3 -120
49ers +3 +110

That's the same vig as -105/-105.

Ignore the fact that I said the Jets were the home team, but listed them on top. I don't feel like going back to edit the post.

[Post-Oak]

And just to make it a bit clearer, NO book has the audacity to charge -130/-130. That is not what you were seeing. In other words, there is no way the line looked like this:

49ers +3 -130
Jets -3 -130

[Post-Oak]

OK, I just reread your post and see that you understand about the magic numbers and unbalanced action.

And now I am really confused.

Are you claiming that you saw a book charging -130 on BOTH sides of a spread? I don't think it is possible you saw this.

[legend42]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you claiming that you saw a book charging -130 on BOTH sides of a spread? I don't think it is possible you saw this.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think he's saying this. I think he's saying they had -130 on the side he wanted to bet.

Of course, if you shop enough books or sell points, you'll be able to get the customary -110 (or better) price, albeit at a different spread. But as Post-Oak explained, the books are not increasing the juice.

[ohnonotthat]

Extremely well put - nice job.

One miniscule point . . .

-110 / -110 is not a dime line; it's a 20 cent line.

-105 / -105 is a dime line.

Dime refers to the difference between the fav. and the dog.

If it seems confusing think of baseball lines.

-150/+140, -125/+115, or -105/+105 are dime lines.

-155/+135, -130/+110, or -110/-110 are 20 cent lines.

-140/+110 (as you'll find on some props) is a 30 cent line.

Not trying to be a find the hair in the egg - just clarifying the [one and only] thing you got wrong.

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Extremely well put - nice job.

One miniscule point . . .

-110 / -110 is not a dime line; it's a 20 cent line.

-105 / -105 is a dime line.

Dime refers to the difference between the fav. and the dog.

If it seems confusing think of baseball lines.

-150/+140, -125/+115, or -105/-105 are dime lines.

-155/+135, -130/+110, or -110/-110 are 20 cent lines.

-140/+110 (as you'll find on some props) is a 30 cent line.

Not trying to be a find the hair in the egg - just clarifying the [one and only] thing you got wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

[DalaiLama]

thanks for the help. the line I saw was

Jets +3 -130
Oakland -3 100

Now its -125/-105

Where does bodog get off charging that much? Several weeks ago I saw a -150 but I forget the other side. Must have been +110+. When did books start doing this. I'm going to check out bos.com. I don't mind shopping around, but it just seems like outright bs. Oh, also over thanksgiving I saw Indy to win out at 6/1. I left my computer for a few hours and logged back on to place the bet and hedge down the stretch. When I got back on it was 3/1 and the next morning it was 2/1. Today with 4 games left its at 5/9. I know a book has the right to set whatever they want, but its pissed me off that bodog is so blatant about it. I'll do business elsewhere. I'd like to have two books, so I'll cash out of bodog and sportsbetting and go elsewhere. They do have really soft poker games though. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Uglyowl]

269 Oakland Raiders -3 (+105)
270 New York Jets +3 (-125)

Currently at, pretty standard.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
Extremely well put - nice job.

One miniscule point . . .

-110 / -110 is not a dime line; it's a 20 cent line.

-105 / -105 is a dime line.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, -110/-110 is a dime line. -105/-105 is a nickel line.

I just checked the glossary of Stanford Wong's book "Sharp Sports Betting" to be sure.

As an aside, this is a good book. Even Mason Malmuth gave this book a high rating!

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
the line I saw was

Jets +3 -130
Oakland -3 100



[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, this is a ripoff.

[ QUOTE ]

Where does bodog get off charging that much?


[/ QUOTE ]

From what I have read, Bodog is one of those books which intentionally tries to avoid taking "wise guy" action. Some books supposedly welcome all comers, but Bodog makes sure to do little things like put up it's lines late, have lower maximum wagers, higher vig (as you showed), etc.

[ QUOTE ]

Oh, also over thanksgiving I saw Indy to win out at 6/1. I left my computer for a few hours and logged back on to place the bet and hedge down the stretch. When I got back on it was 3/1 and the next morning it was 2/1. Today with 4 games left its at 5/9.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's too bad we can't bet the other side!

I remember when Bodog put up a prop where they let you bet the "field" to win the WSOP. It was -150 or -200. Someone on recpoker pointed this out and a bunch of people were able to call up and get approved to bet $500 (the listed maximum for the prop was only $200). By the time I called, they knew not to allow people to go over the max. But they still took the bets! Whoever came up with the price on that prop must have gotten reemed out. The prices they had on the 100 or so listed players were hilariously awful. You could take a guy like Ivey to win and he paid maybe 10 to 1. This was the year Raymer won.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
269 Oakland Raiders -3 (+105)
270 New York Jets +3 (-125)

Currently at, pretty standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, ok.

DalaiLama, this is a dime line (as this poster I am quoting is pointing out). You said -125/-105, which would have been 15 cents of vig (if you bet both sides you lose 30 cents).

But it is -125/+105, which means it is a dime line (bet both sides and lose 20 cents). This has long been the industry standard. It is only recently, and with online sportsbooks, that many books are offering -107/-107, -105/-105, -104/-104, etc.

The dime line is so standard it is assumed when you see a spread listed without the "juice".