Cut Back Starting Hands When Frequent Cold Callers are Behind You? [Archive]

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TomBrooks

12-06-2005, 10:43 AM

Would it be wise to cut back on some opening hands when the players behind you are very liberal Cold Callers? Perhaps the weakest hand you would normally play at a particular position?

For example, the list below shows my default weakest starting hands from each position (based on mantasm's chart.)

Which, if any, might be wise to consider dropping when the chances of getting cold called in one or multiple places are higher than average?

UTG
KJ
JTs

MP
66
A7s
A9
K9s

CO
33
22
A8
K8s
Q9s
QT
J9s
JT

Would this concept apply more, less, or equally to the Button - as it would to the earlier positions? Would you tend to pass on open raising any of the following with very loose blinds that you would usually play?

BUTTON
A6
A5
A4
A3
A2
K7s
Q8s
Q9
J8s
J9
T9s
T8s
T9
98s
87s
76s

jaxUp

12-06-2005, 10:55 AM

I'd consider completing many of those hands OTB vs loose blinds.

As for cutting out marginal hands when likely to be cc'ed, I think it's likely a good idea, although I am still raising my A8+ and K8s+ and QT+

Koss

12-06-2005, 11:04 AM

I really don't like having a loose player on my immediate left for that reason. When I'm in the CO I like to be able to isolate loose limpers and get the pot heads up vs. one of the blinds on a fairly consistent basis.

I don't think it would necessarily be a sin to limp JTs UTG in a looser game. I raise KJo UTG everytime.

I'll usually raise all those hands from MP.

CO I hate raising some of the weaker hands with coldcallers behind me. I fold the small pairs but start loooking for a seat change.

From the button I'll still raise everything but the weak suited connectors. I'm confident in my ability to play postflop with all the other hands and maximize my value with them even when their ability to steal has gone down.

POKhER

12-06-2005, 12:01 PM

I had this today, got screwed a few times vs a 45/10/1.5 though, He never bet flop with big hands... but bet when checked to. Hes was bloddy hard to play againt, In the end of the session after a few rough hands i was down 20BB.

I'd maybe move seat? Or if you can't i'd probably still play similar to as i normally would.

If he cold calls chances are he sucks, So just raise all your strong hands. Ditch raising PP's below 88 IMO(limp but dont raise).

Im still raising KJ and stuff.

On the button you have position over him... so i wont change nout. I just wont blind steal from him if he calls losts, but ill punish him with strong hands.

I mean how loose is he? Does he cold call A5s? K5?

deception5

12-06-2005, 12:03 PM

UTG
KJ - I'm still raising this - the chance of getting cold called by a dominated hand is pretty good.
JTs - I'd probably fold this, but limping is ok at some tables.

MP
66 - raise
A7s - probably raise
A9 - probably raise
K9s - fold

CO
33 - fold regardless (even when the button won't coldcall)
22 - fold regardless
A8 - raise
K8s - fold
Q9s - fold
QT - probably raise
J9s - fold
JT - fold

I agree with Jax on the button hands - you can limp most of them. If the small blind is tight though you should still raise.

aargh57

12-06-2005, 12:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd consider completing many of those hands OTB vs loose blinds.

As for cutting out marginal hands when likely to be cc'ed, I think it's likely a good idea, although I am still raising my A8+ and K8s+ and QT+

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one thing that I find that I have problems with. I know that you would like to be able to sit next to tight blinds that don't defend enough in 6 max games but what about when they defend too much. This should also be a big mistake by them and to our advantage. Is it as simple as you say and just completing with some more of the marginal hands here? I don't think I've ever open limped in 6 max and I always thought that that was a cardinal sin. If they are defending too much then don't we usually have an equity edge on average when raising with some of these hands and even if we don't our position and the poor qualitly of our opponents (assuming someone who defends too much will play poorly postflop, if he doesn't then I can see raising having less value) help to make up for it when we have say, 76s. Anyway, from reading an earlier post here about 76s I can see where it could be valuable to sometimes limp.

deception5

12-06-2005, 12:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is one thing that I find that I have problems with. I know that you would like to be able to sit next to tight blinds that don't defend enough in 6 max games but what about when they defend too much. This should also be a big mistake by them and to our advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is, but we have to make changes to take advantage of their mistake. Raising hands like J9s or 76s on the button when you know you're going to get 2 callers is going to cost you a lot of chips.

Likewise if you know both players are going to call preflop and on the flop, a hand like A2o unimproved is going to get expensive fast. Limping with this hand lets you get out cheaply when you miss and punish when you hit. It's only a good strategy though when you know that both blinds will nearly always come along when you raise. If you have some folding equity then you should still raise.

POKhER

12-06-2005, 01:01 PM

Deception - Can you tell me why you raises/Folded hands i've disagreed with below please?

[ QUOTE ]
UTG
KJ - I'm still raising this - the chance of getting cold called by a dominated hand is pretty good. Agree 
JTs - I'd probably fold this, but limping is ok at some tables. meh Fold or raise(Fold) 

MP
66 - raise I ditch this, U reckon theres value in a raise? 
A7s - probably raise Marginal for me, I'usually ditch it - Im quite tight.
A9 - probably raise yeah ill raise it, offsuite but im happy to play it when a ace flops. 
K9s - fold Undecided, Ditch early one but ill play it as i get a better read.

CO
33 - fold regardless (even when the button won't coldcall)Junk agree. Set value only 
22 - fold regardless junk. Set value only 
A8 - raise agree 
K8s - fold I raise it up! 
Q9s - fold with better read raise. 
QT - probably raise Raise. 
J9s - foldFold 
JT - foldfold 

[/ QUOTE ]

Koss

12-06-2005, 01:34 PM

D5. I'm curious, but at what VPIP's in the blinds do you start limping A5o/J9o OTB as opposed to raising?

deception5

12-06-2005, 01:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Deception - Can you tell me why you raises/Folded hands i've disagreed with below please?

[ QUOTE ]
UTG
JTs - I'd probably fold this, but limping is ok at some tables. meh Fold or raise(Fold) Folding and raising aren't the only options. If you're going to see a flop with this hand you want to get in cheaply so if the table allows it you can limp. If not fold.

MP
66 - raise I ditch this, U reckon theres value in a raise? Yes, you put the burdon on your opponents to connect with the board. They'll often continue on on a ragged flop when they are drawing thin. You very often have the best hand on a paired board, and you may pick up the pot on the flop when it's an ace high board.
A7s - probably raise Marginal for me, I'usually ditch it - Im quite tight. I don't understand why you'd fold this but consider raising K9s. You'll very often have the best hand when you hit an ace or on a ragged/paired board when you miss but your opponents do as well. And you have flush potential to back it up.
K9s - fold Undecided, Ditch early one but ill play it as i get a better read. Out of position I don't like it. If your opponents are willing to call down with any ace you're in big trouble.

CO
K8s - fold I raise it up! 
Q9s - fold with better read raise. 
I really don't like playing either of these against 2-3 opponents out of position. They just don't have enough high card strength or connectedness.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

deception5

12-06-2005, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
D5. I'm curious, but at what VPIP's in the blinds do you start limping A5o/J9o OTB as opposed to raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually it's the SB's that is most important. If he's 60-70% with a low pfr% I'll start considering limping those since it's very likely he'll call and then a somewhat loose BB will call getting 5:1 preflop. If there's a chance he'll 3-bet then I'm raising or if the BB is very tight (15% or less) I'll raise. It also depends how often they give up on the flop to the preflop raiser.

POKhER

12-06-2005, 01:58 PM

K9s Vs A7s - Interms of equity they are probably pretty dam close, However with K9 i like to have good kicker(9+) and k8 gives me this as opposed to A7 that can be hard to fold vs aggression with ace on the deck.

i guess its more of my playing style, So it suites me best.

k8s/Q9s - i raise K8s(As said above, now we have better position slightly(Well vs SB anyhow) and a blind steal.

Q9s - Well similar reasonas as above, But id need a good read.

POKhER

12-06-2005, 02:06 PM

i usually wont attempt to steal from SB/BB if they are around 40VPIP+.

Although as D5 said, if they give up easily on flop when they miss to a raise... Ill fire away with raises.

So a 45/15/1.5 guy who likes to call down ill generally avoid stealing with marginal hands.

never thought about the whole SB thing, BB is more likly to call is Sb limps... Hmm.

Overlooked that!

aargh57

12-06-2005, 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]

never thought about the whole SB thing, BB is more likly to call is Sb limps... Hmm.

Overlooked that!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's one of the things that King Yao talks about in his SH section in Weighing the odds. He says you should very rarely just call a raise in the SB because you're giving BB odds to see a lot more hands and if you notice someone doing this you should try to sit to his left to take advantage of this.

POKhER

12-06-2005, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

never thought about the whole SB thing, BB is more likly to call is Sb limps... Hmm.

Overlooked that!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's one of the things that King Yao talks about in his SH section in Weighing the odds. He says you should very rarely just call a raise in the SB because you're giving BB odds to see a lot more hands and if you notice someone doing this you should try to sit to his left to take advantage of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah sweet, I own this book but i read the first few chapters and thought it was a bit of a SSH paraphrasing.

I'll have to pick it up tonight and read it then.

Along with TOP..HOH... HOH2...psychology... way to much reading and to little time.

deception5

12-06-2005, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ah sweet, I own this book but i read the first few chapters and thought it was a bit of a SSH paraphrasing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed Miller wrote a review on it actually saying it was a great complement to SSH.

deception5

12-06-2005, 02:30 PM

From Ed:

[ QUOTE ]
King Yao's book: Excellent. The author has a very clear understanding of the game, and it covers well some areas we neglected in SSH. My favorite parts are how he breaks down where your EV comes from and shows you how changing your assumptions about the situation change your calculations and sometimes your conclusions. The "If you have the best hand 15% of the time, then EV=blah... but if you have the best hand 35% of the time, then EV=blah," stuff is really important. It's how the really good players (at least 2+2-type players) tend to think, and it's explained lucidly in Yao's book. I only wish Yao had kept his original title.

BTW, I read a couple of threads where people compare Yao's book to SSH. I really think it's apples and oranges. They both cover counting outs and equity and so forth, but then they really branch off. SSH is about adopting a winning philosophy, and then applying that philosophy in a case study (loose opponents). It tells a cohesive story, but doesn't emphasize how things change when the assumptions change.

Yao's book does the opposite. It's short on story and philosophy, but long on describing how different variables affect your decision-making. I think both books should be read by anyone aspiring to play limit hold 'em seriously, and neither book is in any way a replacement for the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

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