Long Time No Post : AJo on the Button

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey guys,

Party 30 10-handed. Bad MP limps, folded to me and I raise A /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the Button. SB folds, decent aggro BB calls, MP calls.

Flop comes: A /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Checked to me and I bet. BB raises, MP folds, I take a bit and call.

Turn comes: 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB bets, I call in rhythm.

River comes: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB bets, I raise in rhythm intended to fold to a 3bet.

GoT

[BigEndian]

Looks like you're trying to get value from the Ax hands that will usually call you. And a lot of hands that have you beat will be shy to 3-bet with the board paired.

- Jim

[thejameser]

vnh. would you have raised the river if the board did not pair or some other scare card did not fall(a 3rd heart, etc.)? many players back off of the river raises and only call, fearing a draw came in for the raiser. was this raise necessarily a product of the paired board, or was this part of your plan since the flop call?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

so next time we play should i start with SSS or PPP? i think bakkubakku is going to start with RRR maybe 60% of hte time and PPP 40% of the time, but i don't think he ever starts with SSS.

it is it so far off to say he could have 9-8??

he probably would have raised w/ any ace.. and he raised the flop.. its that or he could have JQ, but he probably would have raised PF w/ that too..

If you are intending to fold to a three bet with that much money in the pot, then why not simply call on the river?

Also, a raise for value here on the turn would have been nice. I like you putting him on 89, but if that's your read, then why not make him pay to find his 14 outer?

[sy_or_bust]

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If you are intending to fold to a three bet with that much money in the pot, then why not simply call on the river?

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this doesn't make any sense. there are times when raising is +EV against a hand range when called, but a 3-bet indicates you are crushed and should fold. this may or may not be one of these times, but your logic is very bad.

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Also, a raise for value here on the turn would have been nice. I like you putting him on 89, but if that's your read, then why not make him pay to find his 14 outer?

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nobody puts an opponent squarely on 98 by the turn - that is truly terrible. It is a possible worse hand, as is any ace, ten, some sevens and PPs, or random stuff like QJ. The vast majority of these worse hands fold immediately to the turn raise, whereas calling the turn and raising the river extracts at least an extra bet from weaker hands that value bet and and the same # from busted draws that bluff.

[sy_or_bust]

looks good. weaker aces will probably call, and as a bonus the A7/T7 hands are pissed now, whereas they might have pushed you off your hand had you raised the turn.

this board isn't great for the play because few non-ace hands will bet the river, but raising the turn is poor. the aces are still often calling (just as they are bet/calling the river most often), because big PPs might do this for fold equity, but the raise kills the few hands that don't have many outs but will bet the river anyway. also, since it looks like hero is isolating a weak player, there is the chance BB will be more inclined to play aggressively on the turn without an ace. a lot of players won't do this, but 3-betting OOP w/ something like KT is one way to destroy KK-JJ and any worse hand fooling around (planning to check/fold the river). when shown down, shania loves it.

by comparison, the river raise is innately stronger and much less likely to be 3-bet weakly.

I think your use of superlatives and grammar are also bad. However, I do see your point as to playing the turn, and it's a very good one. One thing I might add is that if you read your aggro opponent for a draw (I think that reading opponents is part of the game, no?), then raising on the turn will guarantee you earning your extra bet. He may just check/fold on the river, and you'll lose your bet. If, however, you think that he has a weak ace or pocket pair, then fine, a call is all well and good. He'll bet again and you can raise.

I guess I'm still learning, so thanks for the response.

Argun

[Justin A]

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weaker aces will probably call, and as a bonus the A7/T7 hands are pissed now

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Just a little thing, but AT is still ahead of him.

[Evan]

I still don't understand why this is better than rasing the turn. Everyone is saying "standard" and "nice play" but I don't think this is how most people play it. Why not raise the turn? I do not think he is folding an ace and that is basically all we care about, right? I mean, we're not counting on him putting in all these bets with less than an ace I would think. What if he pusses out and checks the river? I just don't see what you get from waiting.

[NLSoldier]

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weaker aces will probably call, and as a bonus the A7/T7 hands are pissed now

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Just a little thing, but AT is still ahead of him.

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Just a little thing, but read the post you quoted again.

If he is on a draw, your raise on the turn guarantees you a an extra bet. If he reraises you back, and you feel you're beat, you can either: Call him down (a total of three bets) or fold (save two bets). You are either maxing your value or saving $$. Either way, I see nothing wrong here.

If he has an ace, maybe he folds, but more likely he'll call one more time, as the pot is already large enough to justify a call. You MAY lose a big bet on the river by doing this, but since you raised off the flop, just calling on the turn is just as suspicious as raising on it. I say, get your money in when you can.

The only time Villain folds is if he has a small pair, but I don't see him playing a small pair this way. The board is A 7 10 9 on the turn. 1010 and 99, he's raising preflop. He may play 77-88 the way he did, but I see him raising preflop with these hands too. 22-66, he's not playing the flop this way; too tough to put him on these hands if he is, I'm not really considering them at this point.

Your best bet is that he either has two pair, an A, or he's on a draw. Get your money in on the turn, go from there. Most of the time, you'll be maximizing value if you are ahead, and a good laydown can only happen if you pick up something on the turn.

Argun

I like this line a lot. Ive taken to raising the river in the face of an aggressor, because in my experience, it is unlikely that you'll get three-bet. This is a perfect hand to do it with, since your kicker plays.

Sometimes, you lose an extra bet, but the way I see it, I would have lost more had I raised the turn and gotten 3-bet, or I would have lost close the same if I'd raised the flop, and gotten 3-bet and then bet into on the turn. Bottom line is that HU, holding a hand like AJ with top pair, you're going to showdown 100% of the time.

The key question is extracting value when ahead, and losing the least when behind. The previous paragraphd talks about losing the least. The next paragraph talks about extracting value.

The benefit to raising the river comes when you're playing a TAG/LAG who might have been showing early street agrression on a marginal hand. In this case, I'm talking about a weak ace, or perhaps a hand like QQ that for some reason he didnt want to reraise preflop OOP against you. Often times, these guys holding something respectable like TPNK or a decent sized pocket pair, will bet thier hands like the nuts, and you'll get maximum value by raising the river.

nh.

[gonores]

This is standard for me. I'm on a 20458693BB downswing. You do the math. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

What are your plans if he bets a 6 river? What about a Jack river? I think you can make a case for flat-calling a 6. Are you allowed to call a 3-bet on the Jack?

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
This is standard for me. I'm on a 20458693BB downswing. You do the math. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

What are your plans if he bets a 6 river? What about a Jack river? I think you can make a case for flat-calling a 6. Are you allowed to call a 3-bet on the Jack?

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[censored]. its standard for me too. thats not a good sign for you.

[ResidentParanoid]

Decent aggro has seen your pre-flop raise, and check-raises the A-high flop because he either has something, and/or wants to isolate you because he thinks you're trying to steal. Trying to knock out the weak player seems to discount the pure draw.

I don't see what the river raise accomplishes. If he's decent, would he be going to war with you with less than A8? If he had the obvious draw (89) on the flop he also has you slaughtered.

Your only hope is that he had weaker ace (A8 in particular) or middle pair or worse. I'd put my raise in on the turn to punish the possible draws, or charge the weaker ace early, or find out you're beat.

[ghostface]

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I think your use of superlatives and grammar are also poor.

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If you must criticize grammar, be correct yourself.

[Justin A]

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weaker aces will probably call, and as a bonus the A7/T7 hands are pissed now

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Just a little thing, but AT is still ahead of him.

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Just a little thing, but read the post you quoted again.

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7's and T's look alike. Damn.

[GuyOnTilt]

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I still don't understand why this is better than rasing the turn. Everyone is saying "standard" and "nice play" but I don't think this is how most people play it.

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Hey Evan,

You are right of course that the standard play here is to 3bet the flop. Like you, I doubt that many people wait till the river here.

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Why not raise the turn? I do not think he is folding an ace and that is basically all we care about, right? I mean, we're not counting on him putting in all these bets with less than an ace I would think.

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There haven't been that many bets put in so far. The guy defended his blind versus a Button isoraise and check-raised the flop. He doesn't need to have an Ace here, though he probably will most of the time he has a pair. The reason not to raise the turn here is because we cannot fold to a 3bet. It is not super unlikely he has us beat. The two-pair hands out there are ones that will def be in his range here, and getting 3bet sucks here given the size of the pot and the fact that I cannot fold the turn. At the same time it's not highly unlikely I could be beat here, it's also not highly likely I am, and I would like to extract value somewhere if it's possible to at some point. That point is the river, where I can fold to a 3bet very easily and clearly. Aces are still calling here, as my hand up to this point looks nothing like a strong Ace, and I would not be surprised at all if he couldn't fold a T which he decided to bet for value on the river.

GoT

[Justin A]

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and I would like to extract value somewhere if it's possible to at some point. That point is the river, where I can fold to a 3bet very easily and clearly.

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I'd like to add that you'll very rarely be 3bet even with hands that have you beat once you raise the river. It goes with what you said but I think it's an important point in hands like this.

[ResidentParanoid]

I don't get why this is any better than the other options. I can see why it is worse, allowing draws to get in with fewer bets on the flop and turn, and getting less info about the opponent's hand.

This looks like a slow-play to trap an aggro. I don't like that here as a routine approach.

[ResidentParanoid]

Well analyzed. I think GOT is off on this one.

[Entity]

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I don't get why this is any better than the other options. I can see why it is worse, allowing draws to get in with fewer bets on the flop and turn, and getting less info about the opponent's hand.

This looks like a slow-play to trap an aggro. I don't like that here as a routine approach.

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It's not a slowplay at all. Read GoT's analysis at the end of the thread if you haven't already; the large part of this is that while you're possibly ahead, that turn card wasn't great for you given A) his flop checkraise (often a weaker hand -- of which hands like T9 etc. will often be in his range), and the fact that we can't fold to a turn 3-bet.

Rob

[ResidentParanoid]

I have read the GOT response. I didn't say it was intended to be a slow play, but in the end, that's what it turns out to be.

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There haven't been that many bets put in so far. The guy defended his blind versus a Button isoraise and check-raised the flop. He doesn't need to have an Ace here, though he probably will most of the time he has a pair. The reason not to raise the turn here is because we cannot fold to a 3bet. It is not super unlikely he has us beat. The two-pair hands out there are ones that will def be in his range here, and getting 3bet sucks here given the size of the pot and the fact that I cannot fold the turn. At the same time it's not highly unlikely I could be beat here, it's also not highly likely I am, and I would like to extract value somewhere if it's possible to at some point. That point is the river, where I can fold to a 3bet very easily and clearly. Aces are still calling here, as my hand up to this point looks nothing like a strong Ace, and I would not be surprised at all if he couldn't fold a T which he decided to bet for value on the river.


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So let me follow the logic during the play of the hand. I assume that you stop-call the flop raise, with a plan to go-raise further along. So the appearance of the "9" (and maybe other cards?) on the turn makes you decide that because you would have to call a 3-bet, it is better to save the raise for the river?

I just love these sentences:

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It is not super unlikely he has us beat. ... At the same time it's not highly unlikely I could be beat here, it's also not highly likely I am, and I would like to extract value somewhere if it's possible to at some point.

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Talk about confusing things to make your point seem clearer. I am going to translate this without the triple negatives and redundancies:


It's possible I could be beat here, but not highly likely. I would like to extract value somewhere when I have a chance.


If you are not beat, isn't the turn the time to raise it? You are "not highly likely" to be 3-bet, since that is where the 3-bet is coming from on the turn, right? If he's aggro enough that the turn 3-bet doesn't mean he has you beat, then you like calling it even more.


I would not be surprised at all if he couldn't fold a T which he decided to bet for value on the river.

So do you think that he would fold the T on the turn when you raise? So basically, you are slowplaying the turn.

Thought provoking, but I don't see that great value.