PLO 100 - Help! I think I have a extremely big leak here.. (flop play)

[BlueBear]

Omaha Pot Limit ($0.50/$1.00)

Seat 1: SB ($87.95)
Seat 2: BB ($96.50)
Seat 5: UTG ($145.95)
Seat 6: MP ($28.60)
Seat 7: Hero ($95.50)
Seat 9: Button ($76.25)
SB: posts small blind $0.50
BB: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [K/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif]
UTG: folds
MP: calls $1
Hero: raises $3.50 to $4.50
Button: calls $4.50
SB: calls $4
BB: folds
MP: folds
*** FLOP *** [7/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif]
SB: checks
Hero: bets $14.75
Button: raises $44.25 to $59
SB: folds
SB is sitting out
Hero: calls $44.25???

Button is tight, no other reads. Am I making a serious leak by calling here despite my 12-card wrap draw? My default play is always call as the chance that I will fill my straight is 1.22 to 1 and the pot is giving 2 to 1 (therefore, in my head, I am getting good odds). But then I suddenly realised, due to the stack sizes, a flop call pretty much commits me to call a turn bet if the board is unpaired. That means if I call all the way to the river, the pot is giving me an effective pot odds of approximately 1 to 1!! (which would make the original flop call wrong!)

If I'm wrong with the play of this hand and this call, that means I must have leaked lots of money in the past and I should seriously consider giving this game up. I suspect that I have misunderstood a fundamental concept of the game.

The question is, is the flop call wrong?

[Tilt]

Against a set you have 36% equity. Against two pair its more like 43%. But some of your outs are probably shared, giving you much less equity on average. So it should be an easy fold unless your opponent is a maniac who will do this with a much wider range of hands.

You need flush outs as well to play this, upon which you raise

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
You need flush outs as well to play this, upon which you raise

[/ QUOTE ]
If the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif was teh A/images/graemlins/heart.gif then hero would have two backdoor flush draws for a total of about 3 outs. Would this be enough to continue?

Hero does have one backdoor flush draw right now.

This is why position is PARAMOUNT in PLO.

I would probably try to check the flop and hope for a free card on the turn, and call a pot sized bet if not. UI on the turn I muck unless I pickup a flush draw.


Once you take the lead in this hand, you need to call the remainder with two to come.


Remember position when betting semi-strong draws. If this flop came with a flush draw for you then I reccomend firing away and trying to get it all in on the flop.


Tex

Would check calling be too weak on the flop? what is the advantage of check raising this tight player? if you do over half your stack is now in the pot.

[Unabridged]

[ QUOTE ]
Would check calling be too weak on the flop? what is the advantage of check raising this tight player? if you do over half your stack is now in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think check calling is the best, the hand might stay 3way when button bets

i think this is one of those situations, like with top set on a straight board, where you don't want to bet yourself out of a nice draw

I never advocated check raising in this spot. If you had the nut flush draw with the wrap, then a check-raise would be a good play IMO. As is, I dont reccomend a check raise.

There's nothing wrong with a check call on this flop OOP against a tight player. He'd be more than obliged to play all-in with you if he does have QQQ or even 10-10-10, and his bet on the flop signifies that type of a hand. Of course this is all in hindsight, and many players will play this hand just as the OP did, but IMO check calling and peeling one off here cheap with a semi-strong draw is the correct play, and missing the turn then becomes an easy fold. I dont like check calling very often in Hold'em, because in the long term it is not a profitable practice, however, given the complexity of PLO, it is a more profitable strategy when employed in spots like this.




Tex

[TheRempel]

You'd be in a better spot if you had AKKJ or AAKJ, obviously. If the button is truly tight, the worst hand he'd raise you with here would be top two with some straight outs or blockers, which you are in bad shape against. I think it's a fold on the flop with 100BB stacks.

If I raise this type of hand pre and flop this way, I try to mix up my flop bets. You'll probably get more money out of an offensive check here if you make your hand than you will if you pot and hit the turn.

I agree with the others that check-calling here is probably a better play. Hero's draw is decent, but certainly behind most made hands at this point. Check-calling gives the Hero the option of folding to a paired turn and the potential to pick up additional outs even if he misses.

If I'm on the button and it has been checked to me, I am certainly going to lead with this hand.

[joewatch]

I would check-raise here instead of check-call if I felt Villain's bet was weak - maybe that's too aggressive?

[ QUOTE ]
I would check-raise here instead of check-call if I felt Villain's bet was weak - maybe that's too aggressive?

[/ QUOTE ]

I might do the same if I sniffed weakness. The villian from the OP was described as tight though and if he is betting a set here a majority of the time, that check/raise is just adding fuel to a -EV fire.

[Tilt]

Check calling is terrible. Simply terrible. Check raising is functionally the same thing due to pot commitment.

Sometimes you have to accept defeat and move on to the next hand. You still have 75BB's behind. Making good folds is so important to successful PLO. Unless the opponent here is a huge donkey its a laydown, pure and simple.

[joewatch]

I don't quite understand why check-call is so bad. Hero has 10-12 outs to the nuts and may be able to get the correct implied odds on the turn.

[beset7]

Whats wrong with bet/fold to a raise? That's what I'd do most of the time (spewing?)?

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
probably won't be able to get the correct implied odds on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

edits mine.

[ QUOTE ]
Check calling is terrible. Simply terrible. Check raising is functionally the same thing due to pot commitment.

Sometimes you have to accept defeat and move on to the next hand. You still have 75BB's behind. Making good folds is so important to successful PLO. Unless the opponent here is a huge donkey its a laydown, pure and simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding to the reraise is great and I advocate it, but with all due respect WTF are you talking about? Hero started with 95 BB and put in 5 preflop. If he then check/calls 15 BB, he is left with 80 BB on the turn. This is no where near pot committed.

Your 75 BB comment seems to come from the situation in the OP, where the poster certainly should have folded rather than call. Last time I looked that was a bet/call rather than a check/call.

Additionally, about the worst possible hand for the villian to have here is Qs-Q-K-J, which gives the poster 25% equity. Against a range of very playable Q-Q hands, the poster is probably looking at 31-35% equity.

So, if Hero puts in 20BB into a 45BB pot, he is giving up roughly 4BB in the case where he is up against top set. So, it is a bit of a gamble, but not really anything to get all riled up about in the case of a check/call. He is also getting proper pot-odds on his call.

Note how much worse it is in the case of a bet/call. Hero still has the same equity, but instead he put in 60BB into a 125BB pot. Now, he is looking at an expected loss of 16BB.

Is a check/call the greatest play of all time in this case. Probably not! Is the worst play of all time. Probably not! Unless the Hero can narrow the Villian's hand range down to one or two very specific 4-card hands, then a check-call is somewhere between a very slighty +EV and very slightly -EV decision.

[Tilt]

Check calling is so obviously bad it is painful to argue about it. If you check he may pot it with pocket 5's. You call, drawing, showing obvious weakness. If you whiff, he pots it again, and you fold the best hand cause you never showed any strength.

Bet/fold is much better. When he comes over the top of you you know you are behind. Probably way behind.

[Jorge10]

I dont think anyone went into this, but do you guys raise with this hand from early position? Jacks are nothing to go crazy about and the position stinks, im not saying I dont play it or raise it from late position because of the other two cards that are with the jacks, but still from early position seems like a bad idea.

[ QUOTE ]
Check calling is so obviously bad it is painful to argue about it. If you check he may pot it with pocket 5's. You call, drawing, showing obvious weakness. If you whiff, he pots it again, and you fold the best hand cause you never showed any strength.

Bet/fold is much better. When he comes over the top of you you know you are behind. Probably way behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wonderfully valid point.

My sole point was that on average you lose absolutely nothing in terms of expected value by check/calling in this scenario and that check/calling was certainly better than bet/calling.

I am done with this thread.