2 hands with preflop raises

[rkiray]

When to raise in O8 confuses me much more than hold'em. The games I play in (all on Paradise, mostly 2/4 some 3/6 and 1/2) are almost always loose and vary from passive to slightly aggressive. I raise much less in O8 than Hold'em. Specifically 7.5% of my actions in Hold'em are raises verses 4.5% for O8. Here are a couple of preflop raise hands. Later I'll post some postflop raise hands.

Hand 1 :

I'm UTG with : K /forums/images/icons/club.gif K/forums/images/icons/heart.gif J /forums/images/icons/club.gif 3 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

I raise. Normally I only raise preflop in O8 with small cards, since I figure there is a much better chance of scooping the pot with those. But these cards looked pretty good to me, especially if no low showed up on the board. Also I figure I need to raise with big cards once in a while so my opponents can't just bet at me when all high cards flop. Does any of this make any sense?

Next 2 players call 2 cold, 2 fold, co calls, button folds, sb folds, bb calls.

flop : 6 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

BB goes all in for less than a bet. I complete bet. Eveyone calls.

Turn : 3 /forums/images/icons/club.gif [6 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

I bet $4, 1 call, 1 all in for $1.5, one fold

River : K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif [3 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

I feel pretty confident about 1/2 the pot /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

I bet, he calls.

And I win 1/2 of course. Comments?

Hand 2 :

I'm on button with : A /forums/images/icons/club.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif T /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif J /forums/images/icons/club.gif

UTG, and UTG+1 fold, next two call, next two fold, I raise, sb folds, three others call.

Flop : 7 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

BB checks, mp1 checks, mp2 bets, I call, BB folds, mp1 calls
Not a great flop for me. But I figure I still might get the low and the pot is fairly large so I want to see the next card.

Turn : 9 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif [7 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif ]

MP1 checks, MP2 bets, we both fold. Good laydown or wimpy? I now have a gut shot but 8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif might hurt me. Comments?

[Buzz]

“Hand 1 :
I'm UTG with : KcKhJc3h
I raise. Normally I only raise preflop in O8 with small cards, since I figure there is a much better chance of scooping the pot with those. But these cards looked pretty good to me, especially if no low showed up on the board. Also I figure I need to raise with big cards once in a while so my opponents can't just bet at me when all high cards flop. Does any of this make any sense?”

rkiray - Makes sense to me. I agree with your thinking about mixing up your play - and I agree you have a better chance of scooping with low cards. However, your hand doesn’t look very good to me. You have double suited kings with a KJ straight draw - not really a very good hand, in my humble opinion, especially UTG.

“Next 2 players call 2 cold, 2 fold, co calls, button folds, sb folds, bb calls.
flop : 6c5dKs
BB goes all in for less than a bet. I complete bet. Eveyone calls.”

A nice flop for you. You have to hate it when BB goes all in. Since you have two kings, BB almost surely has *some* low - and you have none. BB also probably has a straight draw. You can’t manipulate someone who is all-in.

“Turn : 3c[6c5dKs
I bet $4, 1 call, 1 all in for $1.5, one fold

Not a good turn for you - not a good turn at all. When you bet a card that is not good for you, no one is going to put you on kings anyhow. You’re betting this hand like you have A24X, or at least A2XX - very deceptive, at any rate.

“River : Kd[3c6c5dKd”

Nice.

“I feel pretty confident about 1/2 the pot”

No kidding.

“I bet, he calls.
And I win 1/2 of course. Comments?”

When you start with KKJ3, you’ll make a straight flush about one time out of 884, you’ll make quads or better less than one time in a hundred - and you’ll make a full house or better less than one time in ten.

Congratulations to you for your good fortune in making quads.
*****
“Hand 2 :
I'm on button with : Ac2dTdJc
UTG, and UTG+1 fold, next two call, next two fold, I raise, sb folds, three others call.”

Decent starting hand, but suffers from no counterfeit protection. Roughly one third of the time you're going to get counterfeited for low on the flop. Then, if you get by the flop without getting counterfeited, you still have to get through two more cards, making low and not getting counterfeited. Of the two thirds when you don't get counterfeited on the flop, roughly one fourth (of the two thirds) you get counterfeited on the turn or river. (The grand total of these fractions (1/3+1/6) is 1/2. In other words, with a bare ace deuce, you should expect to get counterfeited half of the time). Mainly for that reason I wouldn't generally raise before the flop with this hand under the table conditions you have described. But many Omaha-8 players would.

“Flop : 7s5c2h”

Ugh. Now you’re dead. You're counterfeited for low and you have no decent high or high draw.

“BB checks, mp1 checks, mp2 bets, I call, BB folds, mp1 calls
Not a great flop for me. But I figure I still might get the low and the pot is fairly large so I want to see the next card.”

Nope. In my humble opinion, after this flop it’s clearly time to dump the hand. You're right that you might still make a low, but it will likely be a losing low.

“Turn : 9s[7s5c2h]
MP1 checks, MP2 bets, we both fold. Good laydown or wimpy? I now have a gut shot but 8s might hurt me. Comments? ”

Your half pot implied odds are about 3 to 1 against. Hand odds against *any* eight are 10 to 1 against. With the hand odds against you (hugely) greater than your implied pot odds, you made a good fold.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Aragorn]

Personally, I wouldn't play this hand, let alone raise with it. You have no low. If 2 clubs come you are drawing to the 2nd nut flush, a recipe for disaster. You only real out is hoping that a king flops and that nobody beats you with a flush or straight.

>>I'm UTG with : K K J 3

>>I raise. Normally I only raise preflop in O8 with small cards, since I figure there is a much better chance of scooping the pot with those. But these cards looked pretty good to me, especially if no low showed up on the board. Also I figure I need to raise with big cards once in a while so my opponents can't just bet at me when all high cards flop. Does any of this make any sense?

Personally, I almost never raise pre-flop in Omaha. The big reason is I want people to see the flop. More often than not, you are playing for half the pot. If you are doing that heads up, you are just feeding the house.

My philosophy is see the flop cheap and get off the hand if I am not drawing to the nuts.

[rkiray]

Yeah, I've noticed that there is not nearly as much raising in O8 as hold'em and that I only raise about 1/2 as much in O8. Maybe I should cut back more. In general I think that playing aggressively is good poker but maybe it's not as important in this game.

I took up O8 for variety and so I have more game selection options. I do like the game. I don't like stud because it's hard for me to remember all the upcards and I don't think I do a good job of adjusting for them. Everytime I've tried to play NoLimit hold'em I get killed. So Omaha is definetly my second game, but I've got a lot to learn. Fortunately I've been running good the last couple of weeks, and after a bad start I've just turned positive at O8. Here is my results from pokerstat. They arn't very impressive, and much worse than my HE numbers, but at least there positive. Also, as the warning points out there isn't enough data to be significant, but it still feels good.

Totals:
20 sessions 1036 hands 23.4 hours
Averages:
1.17 hours/session 44.29 hands/hour
Total won/lost:
+$41.50 (3.88 BB)

Win Rate:
+$1.7742/hour (+0.1657 BB/hour)
Standard Deviation:
$45.5559/hour (12.5142 BB)
Players/Flop: 49.41%

A 95% chance your true win rate is:
$-16.69 to $20.24/hour (-4.91 to 5.24 BB/hour)
A 99.7% chance your true win rate is:
$-26.48 to $30.03/hour (-7.60 to 7.93 BB/hour)

Hours for a 95% chance to win: 1784 hours
Hours for a 99.7% chance to win: 5933 hours

Bankroll for a 95% chance to win: $791.31
Bankroll for a 99.7% chance to win: $2631.84

(warning: you should have at least 100 sessions for data generated to be meaningful)

[Aragorn]

>>In general I think that playing aggressively is good poker but maybe it's not as important in this game.

I think there is less room to make a move in Omaha. Part of it is that there are so many good hands out there. Part is that you can't drive people if they have a good shot at half the pot.

In a loose Omaha game, the only thing that matters is laying down the best hand. You just aren't going to win a whole lot of bluffs. And if you're not in a loose Omaha game, why are you in the game at all?