10/20 Q9o preflop

[jason_t]

shant was sweating me tonight and he didn't like this.

The limper is 60/10/.93, the SB is 22/6 and the BB is 22/10 and both are fairly weak.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: I am Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, I call

[KDawgCometh]

in this case to be honest, its either raise to iso, or fold PF, I just don't see much logic behind calling. Since the blinds are fairly tight, I'd raither raise this PF and take the initiave in this pot

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
in this case to be honest, its either raise to iso, or fold PF, I just don't see much logic behind calling. Since the blinds are fairly tight, I'd raither raise this PF and take the initiave in this pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Initiative against a guy this passive isn't worth that much and increasing the size of the pot and decreasing the errors he makes postflop when I have a hand with little showdown value also doesn't seem worth it.

[KDawgCometh]

if you feel that is the case, then IMO, folding is best. I can see a limp here if its soooted, but I just dunno as is. We have relatively tight blinds, so if we feel that we have any FE on the flop and/or turn, then raising works, but since that might not be the case, I just move onto the next hand

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
if you feel that is the case, then IMO, folding is best. I can see a limp here if its soooted, but I just dunno as is. We have relatively tight blinds, so if we feel that we have any FE on the flop and/or turn, then raising works, but since that might not be the case, I just move onto the next hand

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how what I said implies that folding is best.

[stigmata]

[ QUOTE ]

Initiative against a guy this passive

[/ QUOTE ]

A 60/10/.93 isn't actually that passive -- he may be playing a reasonable postflop game (at least in comparison to his preflop game /images/graemlins/wink.gif). I don't know though, you were at the table. But his stats indicate that you may have some fold equity against this guy, and that he probably isn't a total calling station.

That being said, I just think Q9o is too weak -- we don't have a much (if any) equity against his limping hand (in fact you are really relying on position and outplaying him), and there is still the danger of a decent hand in the blinds.

[private joker]

Folding &gt; Calling &gt; Raising. It's basically a gamble, and I think in this situation we have position and post-flop skill on our side, but a weak hand, small pot, and lack of initiative against us. In the long run I see this play being, if not neutral EV, slightly -EV, but as an exercise it'll be fun to see discussed.

By the way, if one of the blinds raises, I think we should fold despite the improved pot odds. And how's that going to look for our image?

EDIT: Just looked in PT. No big surprise, since I only play Q9o in the BB for free, but my stats say QTo is a +.02bb/100 winner, and Q9o is a (.03)bb/100 loser -- over 37k hands, with about 350 occurrences each.

[vmacosta]

So you had the opportunity to get involved on the button in a pot with 1 single MP limping fish and these guys are telling you to fold? I prefer to raise to hopefully get HU in position against a bad player but calling's ok too, I guess. But playing lots of hands in position against bad players is my style--not necessarily for everybody.

[SteveL91]

Given the nature of the blinds, I'd rather raise here, but I don't think limping is bad. It's definitely a hand I want to play against someone like the limper, but for whatever reason, I don't like being the second limper into the pot.

[KDawgCometh]

I'm not saying that you felt that folding is best, I just think that given the situation, it is probably the best play, and that raising is the next best play. If we can gain FE and fold out the blinds, then we raise, if not, then I'm not bothering with this hand.

I generally like to take the lead in pots and what not. Against this villian, that would be the route that I would take if I was to play the hand. basically here this is how I'd go about this folding&gt;raising&gt;calling. I don't want this hand more then HU, and raising gives us the best chance for that if we are to play it. limping is just encouraging the sb to complete with good odds on almost any two cards, and obviously the BB is gonna check with any crap hand, do you really want to play this hand in a 4 way limped pot PF, I don't

[Dazarath]

I'm going to go against what others have said and say, I like it and I'd do the same. As someone pointed out before, raising is not good because a 63/x/x probably doesn't have the concept of initiative in his mind. If he likes his hand, he's going to play, regardless of what we may have.

"Not having equity vs his range of hands" does not dictate a fold. The combination of this as well as the fact that the limper may not have an idea of initiative, tell us that a raise may not be the best idea.

I think if either blind is aggressive or a good player, this is a pretty clear fold. I only like playing these semi-trashy hands vs loose-passives.

[BigEndian]

I think this is the very fringe of what I would limp with here. And only if I feel like I'm playing well enough to not be stupid with it post flop. A lot of nights, this isn't the case.

- Jim

[Dazarath]

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: Just looked in PT. No big surprise, since I only play Q9o in the BB for free, but my stats say QTo is a +.02bb/100 winner, and Q9o is a (.03)bb/100 loser -- over 37k hands, with about 350 occurrences each.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you filter out blind status? If you're trying to disprove the possibility of Q9o being a slightly profitable hand, hands where you were in the blinds should be discounted. Since you said you don't play it anywhere else, then it's going to be 0 BB/100, which doesn't say much.

From what I can tell, I think I play these kinds of "trashy" hands (out of the blinds) more than most 2+2ers do. Hands like A9o-J9o, etc. I'm showing a slight profit, but some of them I only blind steal with, so the data may be skewed. They also aren't standard limps for me by any means. I usually only play them in situations where LPs have limped and I'm on the button (maybe the cutoff) with passive blinds left to act.

At the online mid-stakes games, this is a very rare situation. As a result, my sample size is small, so I don't have any definite conclusions at the moment. But if in the future, I find that I'm losing with them, I'll drop them from my play and say to myself, "they were right". Otherwise, I'll continue.

[BigEndian]

Not to mention there's a very significant value difference between playing Q9o in first position and on the button.

- Jim

[Don Olney]

I do not care for the limp here--Raise it here or fold---99% of the time I fold in this spot--BUT I AM TIGHT ---
and if you raise it here--when the flop hits, if the callers show they are weak you MUST bet the flop-----

[sfer]

Am I the only person who wonders how often these guys get to showdown before I decide my action?

EDIT: Also, I would never fold QTo/T9o here, and can't imagine the difference is particularly meaningful.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only person who wonders how often these guys get to showdown before I decide my action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your new name is even worse than The Daver. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

PLEEEEEEEEEEASE COME BACK, SFER. PLEASE COME BACK. AND BRING BACK THE PRETTY BROKE ASIAN MAN FROM YOUR AVATAR.

[DeathDonkey]

By coincidence I was talking to a friend about my standards for isolating and I gave him Q9o as the low bound on offsuit queens I would raise with. I would raise here. I think limping is second best. Folding is missing a chance to win some easy money. The raise isn't about initiative (though sometimes it helps) but just about getting the damn blinds out.

-DeathDonkey

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
shant was sweating me tonight and he didn't like this.

[/ QUOTE ]
For the record I didn't say I didn't like it. I just said, "interesting."

[Joe Tall]

Nice hand. This post should be in SS.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
It's basically a gamble,

[/ QUOTE ]

No $hit, and figure that, we're playing poker too after all, funny. In this situation it's an easy call. I'm sure the forum plays too tight on the button.

This discussion reminds of this old thread...and that's a very young (poker age) GoT in that thread who knows a lot better now. (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=381932&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1)

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in this case to be honest, its either raise to iso, or fold PF, I just don't see much logic behind calling. Since the blinds are fairly tight, I'd raither raise this PF and take the initiave in this pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Initiative against a guy this passive isn't worth that much and increasing the size of the pot and decreasing the errors he makes postflop when I have a hand with little showdown value also doesn't seem worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]


I have not read through yet, but this caught my eye.

The guy VPIPs 60% of the time and still maintains almost a 1 for overall aggression.

I keep a lot of data points up on my HUD, including street by street aggression, raising percentage by street, folding percentage by street, and check raising percentage by street.

It has given me a different take on guys simaliar to this. Some of these guys fold frequently on the flop, others are habitual peelers... but are aggressive on the turn. I guess my point is that the overall aggro number on this guy is misleading, on some street he is doing something (for lack of a better term). Or to say it another way... he is most likely more aggressive than the "1" would lead you to believe. The rest of the stats I referenced would give you a clearer picture of what kind of guy you are dealing with.

The other thing that comes to mind, is that yes you probably do have an edge here.. you have position and a hand that probably is on par with most of his holdings. You can also probably assume a post flop edge (although probably not as great of one as his basic stats would indicate, no knock on you but some of these guys are not as heinous post flop as their VPIP/PFR stats would lead you to believe.)

However your edge is probably relatively slim, and easily eliminated by possible action behind you. Also probably easily erased by any mistakes you may make post-flop. In one of the Poker Essay volumes; Mason talks about hands that are either small winners or losers... this would seem to be one of them... I believe he advises getting away from them.

That said in my opinion it is kind of dependent upon your personal phiolosophy. In my opinion these situations feed variance, and really don't carry much "metagame" benefit. I might be giving up a bit by folding these situations, but I guess I kind of doubt it.

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
However your edge is probably relatively slim, and easily eliminated by possible action behind you. Also probably easily erased by any mistakes you may make post-flop. In one of the Poker Essay volumes; Mason talks about hands that are either small winners or losers... this would seem to be one of them... I believe he advises getting away from them.



[/ QUOTE ]


honestly, that is too generic of a thought. I think being able to find the value of hands like these will make you a much bigger winner.

Now, I know that I've kinda flip-flopped throughout this, but I'm gonna go more with my original intention of raising to knock out the blinds and get it HU with this honkey. I agree with Sfer though, showdown % here is important along with other relevant stats and observations(like, do scare cards make him fold the better hand?)

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
shant was sweating me tonight and he didn't like this.

[/ QUOTE ]
For the record I didn't say I didn't like it. I just said, "interesting."

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad, misinterpretation on my part; we didn't get a chance to really talk about it.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice hand. This post should be in SS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry. Because it's a preflop decision? What are the guidelines?

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However your edge is probably relatively slim, and easily eliminated by possible action behind you. Also probably easily erased by any mistakes you may make post-flop. In one of the Poker Essay volumes; Mason talks about hands that are either small winners or losers... this would seem to be one of them... I believe he advises getting away from them.



[/ QUOTE ]


honestly, that is too generic of a thought. I think being able to find the value of hands like these will make you a much bigger winner.


[/ QUOTE ]

However that is where we are at. The value of these hands is based upon the information available. Since the hand is thin to begin with, I would guess the value would fluctuate greatly depending on the opposition.

In this one particular situation described in the OP, I think there is a fair chance that we have misinterpreted the limper as a loose passive post flop player. He is definetly loose pre-flop. But as I said in my original post his AF rating of "1" gives me reason to suspect he may not be terribly passive post-flop. In other words he may play after the flop much more reasonably (not to say well)than he does pre-flop.

If that is the case a good chunk of our edge will be based on superior PF standards. So against this particular player, without more information (ie a specific reason/,ore specific stats or an observed exploitable tendency), I would fold.

[Klepton]

limping along allows 2 more people into a pot that shouldn't be there.

when you raise, most likely both SB and BB will fold, and no matter what the flop it's going to be check/bet/fold.

next time raise and get it heads up, and then just win on the flop.

limping here really sucks.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nice hand. This post should be in SS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry. Because it's a preflop decision? What are the guidelines?

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe Tall is a tool. Keep posting these hands.

I like a raise here. Q9o plays well against his limping range and a raise clears out the blinds. You don't have to bet the flop.

[B Dids]

While I agree that 10/20 should be here, Joe is totally not a tool.

That 75s thread actually got mentioned in some irc convos last night. It's a real eye opener to go back and take a look at.

[tpir90036]

I think there is some context missing. I read JoeTall's response as "this should be posted in SS since most people probably fold here incorrectly." And not "this hand is super basic and should be moved."

Maybe I am reading into it too much.... but I read it as a good thing and not as an insult.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry. Because it's a preflop decision? What are the guidelines?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they'll get more a benefit from such discussion.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I think there is some context missing. I read JoeTall's response as "this should be posted in SS since most people probably fold here incorrectly." And not "this hand is super basic and should be moved."

Maybe I am reading into it too much.... but I read it as a good thing and not as an insult.

[/ QUOTE ]

You read a good hand, my friend! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[BigEndian]

Wow. Just, wow.

- Jim

[CardSharpCook]

If I misread his comment, I apologize. It just sounded like all the BS we used to hear in the M/H forum. "This should be moved to SS".

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]


I think they'll get more a benefit from such discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

SS is full of raising stations. They will not like a call or a fold.

Joe -- what's the worst hand you're limping with here? If Q9o is an "easy call," I assume you're playing Q8o and maybe Q7o? Q7s? J8o? T8s?

[Dazarath]

One of the reasons I like the split is because we can now discuss topics like this.

[ QUOTE ]
Initiative against a guy this passive isn't worth that much and increasing the size of the pot and decreasing the errors he makes postflop when I have a hand with little showdown value also doesn't seem worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the wrong principle to apply.

These blinds are tight. While Q9o may not be a great isolation hand against a loose passive, your hand as a significantly better chance of being good at showdown HU with position against a tard, compared to against a 4-person field.

This is clear raise or fold, I think, although I fold.

[gh9801]

A decision like this probably doesn't matter that much. But if you were to play, I'd raise this - simply you have a better chance of taking down the pot if you miss the flop and you will probably isolate him

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
limping along allows 2 more people into a pot that shouldn't be there.

when you raise, most likely both SB and BB will fold, and no matter what the flop it's going to be check/bet/fold.

next time raise and get it heads up, and then just win on the flop.

limping here really sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the limper goes to showdown more than half the time raising is retarded.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
SS is full of raising stations.

[/ QUOTE ]
A raise is going to be good in some spots, really depends on further into the read of the limper and blinds. I raise such a hand here if the limper can fold postflop and the blinds will very likely go away.

[ QUOTE ]
what's the worst hand you're limping with here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be limping behind here w/hands like J7s, T8s, Kxs, 75s, off the top of my head in this "bread and butter" situation: you have positional advantage, a weak limper and tight blinds, you should want to get in there and play some poker god dammit! Poker is a game of situations and you are ontop of one here with good reads, so get in there and play!

[CardSharpCook]

ok, but we have tight blinds and a limper who we have to beat at showdown. So... raise PF to get rid of the blinds, and only bet if you think YHIG.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
You read a good hand, my friend! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
If only I could read poker hands as well.