200/400 bellagio AQo

[bicyclekick]

full table.

A bad player (bobby b on the board (jon bender I think is his real name)) had limped ep with KK and I'd overlimped with A6s (that good of a game at the time) and I flopped and ace and after the hand he said "you woulda probably called me anyhow preflop if i'd have raised" i said I didn't know, depends how many amstels I'd had (I'd had a couple at this point) and another player started givin me [censored] about how I was bullshitting the guy and "giving me a dose of my own medicine"he so called it...not so loud that bobby heard but jsut being stupid. I had been folding a lot of hands and this guy hadn't played all weekend so he probably thought just like liz lieu did..that i'm some scared tight kid who can be pushed around.

An older super loose/passive (j3s utg etc...plays most of his hands (different than the player who limped kk) limps, I raise A/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the hijack, folded to that guy in the sb I'd had a little thing with who genuinely pauses as if he's thinking, looks at me and 3 bets, fish calls, I 4 bet, they both call.

Flop A/images/graemlins/spade.gif5/images/graemlins/heart.gif2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (I have no spades)
Sb bets, fish calls, I call.

[mike l.]

seems fine. but you should be raising the turn here virtually every time.

The SB 3bets you preflop you 4bet, and now he bets into 2 players, a fish and a preflop 4 bettor, on an Ace high flop. This is a sign of great strength IMO. In this situation I would also just call on the flop as you did. In fact, I would not put in a single raise postflop unless I improve, I would just call this down. My goal here would be to get to the showdown as cheaply as possible.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
jon bender I think is his real name

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS GUY!?!

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/770/1234557ds.jpg

Fold, cause when you mess with the bull, you get the horns.

















btw, Schneids and BK have never seen the breakfast club and i would have totally stayed out of this thread except they didn't know who i was talking about when I IMed them, and that pissed me off enough to post random stupid crap in this otherwise possibly good thread, but I guess since they're both mods they can delete this and ban me anways.

[bicyclekick]

I've seen the breakfast club I don't know what you're talking about.

Different jon bender. I'm not even sure that was his name.

[flawless_victory]

i play it the same so far (generally).
raise the turn if given the opportumity no matter what comes.
BTW/ maybe you should mention whether you had the Qs?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
The SB 3bets you preflop you 4bet, and now he bets into 2 players, a fish and a preflop 4 bettor, on an Ace high flop. This is a sign of great strength IMO. In this situation I would also just call on the flop as you did. In fact, I would not put in a single raise postflop unless I improve, I would just call this down. My goal here would be to get to the showdown as cheaply as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

i concur

[mike l.]

" This is a sign of great strength IMO"

wrong. he had to stop and think preflop. that means questionable hand. there's no way sb is stopping and thinking with AK. his 3 bet would be in in a heartbeat. AQ is way good on this flop, the only reason the flop call is right is because it's like a slowplay. raising the turn is the only option especially if a spade comes (bk doesnt have one).

flat call here? i dont understand.. why does the spades thing have anything to do with it.. chances are you have the best hand.. and if someone is drawing to the spade flush you're ahead and will win more times than not... im pretty sure thats simple poker knowledge.

I can't say I know the dynamics of 200/400, but what are the odds that a hand you beat will bet into you again on the turn? My guess is that they're fairly low, in which case a flop raise is better since there are lots of worse hands that'll call down.

[DpR]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't say I know the dynamics of 200/400, but what are the odds that a hand you beat will bet into you again on the turn? My guess is that they're fairly low, in which case a flop raise is better since there are lots of worse hands that'll call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if you have AJ clubs here in the BB, you would not play it exactly the same as the BB did here ? Then with that same AJ wouldn't you lead the turn?

Maybe youre right. Maybe I am putting too much stock into the preflop/flop action instead of BK's read on his opponent. I understand BK's read preflop and why he 4 bet it. The typical player would never pause with TT's or above or AK. But when this guy bets the flop after BK 4 bets it, I am ready to abandon this read and go into defense mode. Maybe I am giving up on this read too early in the hand, but the last thing I want to do is stubbornly stick to a read and lose more money becuz of it. I am not saying calling down here is the right strategy, just saying thats what I would do and why.

[Paluka]

I don't think the various lines you could take on this hand make a real big difference. I would not want to raise the turn though, because that would be the worst place to get 3 bet.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
jon bender I think is his real name

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS GUY!?!

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/770/1234557ds.jpg

Fold, cause when you mess with the bull, you get the horns.

















btw, Schneids and BK have never seen the breakfast club and i would have totally stayed out of this thread except they didn't know who i was talking about when I IMed them, and that pissed me off enough to post random stupid crap in this otherwise possibly good thread, but I guess since they're both mods they can delete this and ban me anways.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Claire. Claire! That's a fat girl's name!"

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
jon bender I think is his real name

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS GUY!?!

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/770/1234557ds.jpg

Fold, cause when you mess with the bull, you get the horns.

















btw, Schneids and BK have never seen the breakfast club and i would have totally stayed out of this thread except they didn't know who i was talking about when I IMed them, and that pissed me off enough to post random stupid crap in this otherwise possibly good thread, but I guess since they're both mods they can delete this and ban me anways.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Claire. Claire! That's a fat girl's name!"

[/ QUOTE ]

"This is what you get at my house when you spill paint in the garage."

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
jon bender I think is his real name

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS GUY!?!

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/770/1234557ds.jpg

Fold, cause when you mess with the bull, you get the horns.

















btw, Schneids and BK have never seen the breakfast club and i would have totally stayed out of this thread except they didn't know who i was talking about when I IMed them, and that pissed me off enough to post random stupid crap in this otherwise possibly good thread, but I guess since they're both mods they can delete this and ban me anways.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Claire. Claire! That's a fat girl's name!"

[/ QUOTE ]

"This is what you get at my house when you spill paint in the garage."

[/ QUOTE ]

"Well, some I consider my girlfrieds... and some...I just consider..."

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
jon bender I think is his real name

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS GUY!?!

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/770/1234557ds.jpg

Fold, cause when you mess with the bull, you get the horns.

















btw, Schneids and BK have never seen the breakfast club and i would have totally stayed out of this thread except they didn't know who i was talking about when I IMed them, and that pissed me off enough to post random stupid crap in this otherwise possibly good thread, but I guess since they're both mods they can delete this and ban me anways.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Claire. Claire! That's a fat girl's name!"

[/ QUOTE ]

"This is what you get at my house when you spill paint in the garage."

[/ QUOTE ]

"Well, some I consider my girlfrieds... and some...I just consider..."

[/ QUOTE ]

"You know what I got for Christmas this year? It was a banner [censored]' year at the old Bender family! I got a carton of cigarettes. The old man grabbed me and said "Hey! Smoke up Johnny! Okay, so go home'n cry to your daddy, don't cry here, okay?"

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
jon bender I think is his real name

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS GUY!?!

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/770/1234557ds.jpg

Fold, cause when you mess with the bull, you get the horns.

















btw, Schneids and BK have never seen the breakfast club and i would have totally stayed out of this thread except they didn't know who i was talking about when I IMed them, and that pissed me off enough to post random stupid crap in this otherwise possibly good thread, but I guess since they're both mods they can delete this and ban me anways.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Claire. Claire! That's a fat girl's name!"

[/ QUOTE ]

"This is what you get at my house when you spill paint in the garage."

[/ QUOTE ]

"Well, some I consider my girlfrieds... and some...I just consider..."

[/ QUOTE ]

"You know what I got for Christmas this year? It was a banner [censored]' year at the old Bender family! I got a carton of cigarettes. The old man grabbed me and said "Hey! Smoke up Johnny! Okay, so go home'n cry to your daddy, don't cry here, okay?"

[/ QUOTE ]

"The door's way too heavy, sir."

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
jon bender I think is his real name

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS GUY!?!

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/770/1234557ds.jpg

Fold, cause when you mess with the bull, you get the horns.

















btw, Schneids and BK have never seen the breakfast club and i would have totally stayed out of this thread except they didn't know who i was talking about when I IMed them, and that pissed me off enough to post random stupid crap in this otherwise possibly good thread, but I guess since they're both mods they can delete this and ban me anways.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Claire. Claire! That's a fat girl's name!"

[/ QUOTE ]

"This is what you get at my house when you spill paint in the garage."

[/ QUOTE ]

"Well, some I consider my girlfrieds... and some...I just consider..."

[/ QUOTE ]

"You know what I got for Christmas this year? It was a banner [censored]' year at the old Bender family! I got a carton of cigarettes. The old man grabbed me and said "Hey! Smoke up Johnny! Okay, so go home'n cry to your daddy, don't cry here, okay?"

[/ QUOTE ]

"The door's way too heavy, sir."

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops sorry guys, I thought this was OOT for a second. Carry on. Raise the turn beacuse mikel said to.

[NLSoldier]

ok thats more than enough.

[skp]

You raised a limper. Your raise will not look like a steal to anyone albeit the limper is quite apparently a loose player. sb then makes it 3 bets. He is not restealing or thinking that you are raising lightly.

Yet, you 4 bet with Aq. I think that 4 betting with TT and AK here is a gimme. Not so sure about 4 betting with AQ. In this spot, there is a world of difference between Ak and Aq.

I suppose it's a good play if the other guy will drop AK on the turn if he is still pairless. But those kind of guys are few and far between once the pot gets so bloated preflop.

No one in this thread is even questioning the AQ 4 bet preflop. I am not saying that it's a bad play - but rarther that it is an iffy play.

If someone believes that 4 betting is clearly superior, please outline your reasons.

Why the heck would you want to raise. On the turn, raise if fish call. Just call if fish bolds to sb's bet. Then, on the river, you might want to put in a raise because by then, the dude will be too hesitant to 3 bet with AK and in too deep to fold his KK or whatever

Of course, (a) he may not bet his KK on the end and therefore you don't get a chance to raise or (b) be a player who will not bet the river unless he has an ace in which case you should obviously just call.

[nykenny]

I disagree that SB's hand is most likely a monster.

imo, a short pause in SB's situation feels more like a A9s - AJ, 55 - 99. So betting that flop into fish and BK is not out of the question. He could be betting:

1) AT, legit and likely the best hand
2) 99, fold BK's mid pair leveraging the fishy player
3) AK, AA, play fast to disguise his strength
4) KK - TT, similar to 2) but possible best hand against BK's mid pocket pair

etc,

just some thoughts.

- Kenny

[limon]

doouble wrong. the guy limped w/kk earlier so he likes to mix up his play preflop. MANY players dont 3 bet out of the blinds w/AK so he may have had to think about it. that said, i see a CR w/ ak from this guy. i bet he has KK again. he will fire twice so raise him on the turn unless the middle dude wakes up.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
i bet he has KK again.

[/ QUOTE ]

i know he limped with it before, but at this point how could he not cap it PF with KK?

[Klepton]

that kinda got out of control rather quickly

[bicyclekick]

different player than the guy who limped KK. Sorry if that was confusing.

And surfdoc. Knock that [censored] off.

[limon]

not the same guy w/ kk anyway. in that case i put him on a big hand and he wants you to raise him...DONT DO IT! calling down is fun! maybe you can split up the middle guy's money.

[Paluka]

I really think raising the river here is reasonable as long as the river isn't a K or J.

[Lawrence Ng]

I'm with SKP here post flop, but disagree on the pre-flop part. If our OOP slowplaying tricky villain knows that BK is capable of re-raising to isolate, then I can definitely see a wider range of hands he could hold off hoping to isolate BK with. This is not to say he would do so with a crap range of hands, but definitely something legitimate like some pocket pair, Ax, or even Kx could be in his holdings.

Thus I like BK's cap for value.

If I am able to get it HU on the turn with our villain, I probably will also smooth call and raise the river.

Lawrence

[shmahappens]

Agreed about the AK - also BK capped preflop, which if he thinks BK is tight scared screams made hand. Maybe this guy thinks BK is scared/tight enough to quickly fold that pair on this ragged A-high board to a preflop raiser.

Wait till the turn to raise

[skp]

But Lawrence....

...Famous starting words of Jim Brier posts where he disagreed with someone...

But Lawrence, on this preflop play, the John Feeney AQ test [which is of course renamed the KJ test in Southern California] says that we should fold AQ to an early position raise. Here, we have the sb - we can't get a more early position - not just raising but 3 betting.

Surely, taking the lessons learned from the AQ test, we should be proceeding with some caution. Granted, there may be reasons to 4 bet but those reasons I suggest wouldn't include 'for value'.

[cpk]

[ QUOTE ]
Granted, there may be reasons to 4 bet but those reasons I suggest wouldn't include 'for value'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Such as not being able to put me on AA-KK-AK when I 4-bet? Of course, the alternative here is "never 4-bet." I'm not a good enough player to know which is better.

BK, since it looks like this thread is dying, can you post the results to this one? Im still curious as to what hand the SB would play this way.

[bicyclekick]

The rest of the hand is pretty unninteresting.

The turn brought the Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif sb checked, fish bet, I raised, sb folded, fish called. River brought a blank the fish check called and mhig.

[Becks77]

I have a quick question for you BK. Im having a little trouble understanding the raise when the spade comes on the turn. I know it gives you two pair but what if the fish was in there with a flush draw. I know the raise gives you info on whether or not he does have the flush but what do you do if he three bets you on the turn?
Im not trying to say I understand these limits what so ever but Id like to understand your thinking regarding this. Do you check/call down or do you fold on the river when he leads out after raising the turn? Thanks

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a quick question for you BK. Im having a little trouble understanding the raise when the spade comes on the turn. I know it gives you two pair but what if the fish was in there with a flush draw. I know the raise gives you info on whether or not he does have the flush but what do you do if he three bets you on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you play poker. And that involves almost always calling down.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]

Then you play poker. And that involves almost always calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been doing it wrong this whole time!