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directscooter
12-06-2005, 01:25 AM
Had my first (of many, I am sure) bad night at NL200. Some bad beats, some bad calls, and this one....
Villain (UTG+1) is 21/7, pretty normal all around. Most of my stats were from data mining and I have not seen much from him so far.
I am gonna post my thoughts in a reply so as not to taint others opinions.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

MP1 ($137.20)
MP2 ($113.45)
MP3 ($284.75)
CO ($260.60)
Button ($103.55)
SB ($198)
Hero ($209.25)
UTG ($199)
UTG+1 ($241.15)
UTG+2 ($195.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $2, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $2, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, UTG+1 calls $8, MP2 calls $8.

Flop: ($31) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $25</font>, UTG+1 calls $25, MP2 folds.

Turn: ($81) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $35</font>, UTG+1 calls $35.

River: ($151) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $50</font>, UTG+1 calls $171.15 (All-In), Hero......?

tdomeski
12-06-2005, 01:28 AM
bet $70 on turn

as it was played I would call the river.

directscooter
12-06-2005, 01:30 AM
I am assuming the preflop and flop are fine by everyone, I guess the only hand I am worrying about is 55.
One the turn, I am guessing I could have made it a little more, but I am still not giving correct odds to chase.
On the river, I thought that was a good blocking bet at the time, what should I really be afraid of here, KQ, doesn't that need to raise somewhere? When he pushes I figure I am probably behind but getting about 4-1 I thought it was worth a call and I had to see what it was.

directscooter
12-06-2005, 01:33 AM
If you bet $70 do you fold to a reraise or call?
The $35 was a little low, but I guess I was thinking of keeping the pot smaller.

ninjia3x
12-06-2005, 01:53 AM
bet more on the turn. fold to a decent raise.

you should just check the river.

as played u have to call, cause u played that hand so weak there is a good chance villian is putting a bluff on you.

12-06-2005, 01:58 AM
I would bet 60 on the turn, fold to a reraise obviously

crosse91
12-06-2005, 02:09 AM
directscooter,
i would
a) bet 25 on flop
b) 65ish on turn (fold to raise)
c) check/call river (or just bet it, very opponent dependent)

as it is, i call river. If he hasn't raised to protect his whatever by now, then he will lose money later.

Regards,
crosse

directscooter
12-06-2005, 02:19 AM
I gotta get some sleep, but it looks like the early consensus is betting more on the turn.. if he called 35 I am assuming he would have only called 65 as well and I would have lost my stack anyway, but I definitely like this line better.
A worse hand could have probably stole it from me by pushing the turn.
In this case the Villain had QQ, I would not have put him on that, I guess he didn't care about the diamond draw on the flop or was really scared that I had KK.

crosse91
12-06-2005, 02:22 AM
yea tricky hand, i'm running into opponents who will check/call or call (if in position) sets all the way to the river and then pop me back out of no-where

12-06-2005, 02:27 AM
betting 65 is also much better than 35 because if he raises 35 you can still say "well ive shown weakness" and all that. if you bet 65 and he raises then you can get away.

his play sucks, the only way he can stack you when you have AK is if he plays it passively and doesnt raise you off your hand, which means he's not protecting his hand. hes forced to read you perfectly for a drawing dead TPTK, if you have anything else he is screwed. advantage you.

tdomeski
12-06-2005, 03:28 AM
If I bet $70, I would fold to a turn raise.

Lucky
12-06-2005, 03:32 AM
1. make it 13 pf (a normal raise with position would be to 11, ya gotta do a bit more imho to get HU hopefully.

2. Bet more on turn, many will take it away just because there.

3. check river and play poker

Wayfare
12-06-2005, 03:56 AM
From this villan, who has very similar stats to me, this is a fold. He either has QQ, QK, or 55. The river raise all in is not a bluff.

Edit, in fact, given the pot size, I suppose you have to call.

EDIT2: In fact, getting 2-1, I would still fold.

tdomeski
12-06-2005, 03:58 AM
Yeah that's why his turn/river combo is really really bad.

Wayfare
12-06-2005, 04:00 AM
[ QUOTE ]
bet $70 on turn

as it was played I would call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why shouldn't we treat this as a WA/WB situation on the turn and play for pot control?

A villan like that is not calling on the flop without A: set or top 2 B: flush draw.

We don't want to bloat the pot size if he does indeed have set. I think he can take you off a flush draw with reasonable certainty, and therefore he wouldn't give you the pleasure of raising the turn and letting you off if you bet $70. I check/call this turn and river.

tdomeski
12-06-2005, 04:15 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Why shouldn't we treat this as a WA/WB situation on the turn and play for pot control?

[/ QUOTE ]

because Hero is not way ahead a hand like J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Wayfare
12-06-2005, 10:13 AM
I agree that it is not always the case that hero is WAWB but those hands you list seem less likely and less dangerous than the hands you are afraid of. If a diamond comes off and you have bet the turn big, you are likely going to pay off because of the pot size.

It's so interesting how a seemingly harmless mistake (raise preflop) can combine with a moderate mistake (betting the turn not enough) to cost you your stack.

OP could have saved half his money by folding the river as played, and more than half if he had checked pf, bet flop, bet OR c/c turn, and decided on river.

It's important to note that if you bomb the preflop action with a big raise you don't need to bet the flop because of the much lesser possibility of a flush draw out there. Likewise since you have not made the pot that big with a flop bet, you can safely fire out on a blank turn and really get a good range of hands on your opponents.

Stop &amp; go is pretty strong, and it will blast out most hands in opponent's range.

directscooter
12-06-2005, 11:07 AM
Preflop raise was a mistake? Please explain, if it is I am doing a lot of things wrong... or do you mean the amount?
I am a little suprised now that I went back through that I only made it $8 usually I add an extra BB to the rule, ad make it like $14 here, I can't tell ya what I was thinking there.

maranello11
12-06-2005, 11:19 AM
Direct,

Something to think about here. Villian limped in the UTG+1 and when you raised he just called instead of the re-raise. I play this game quite a bit and after the board paired on the turn and he called your bet you have to assume he is not on flush draw and either has 5555, KQ or QQQ. As it is, I check river and see his action. Also raise Ak and Big pairs in BB SB to about 12 in this game, youll have an easier time knowing where you are at when out of position. Tough hand , keep fighting.

Denutz
12-06-2005, 12:28 PM
Direct,

I've gotten into situations like this a lot recently and one thing I've noticed is that two tone flops are really a losing proposition.

It's easy to convince yourself that the other guy is on the flush draw, whereas it seems that the vast majority of the time when the betting gets big, it's b/c they've hit a set.

Don't mean to hijack your thread, but it seems relevant here. I'm not sure you would call the river push unless there was the possibility that the missed flush draw was trying to knock you out.

I'm trying to only play sets and actual flush draws on flops like this, when the action gets heavy. What do other people do in these situations?

KowCiller
12-06-2005, 01:43 PM
I check/call this river about 80%. Bet/fold the other 20%.

KoW

Wayfare
12-06-2005, 01:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Direct,

I've gotten into situations like this a lot recently and one thing I've noticed is that two tone flops are really a losing proposition.

It's easy to convince yourself that the other guy is on the flush draw, whereas it seems that the vast majority of the time when the betting gets big, it's b/c they've hit a set.

Don't mean to hijack your thread, but it seems relevant here. I'm not sure you would call the river push unless there was the possibility that the missed flush draw was trying to knock you out.

I'm trying to only play sets and actual flush draws on flops like this, when the action gets heavy. What do other people do in these situations?

[/ QUOTE ]

i would say that pot control becomes way more important on a two tone board hand because you don't know whether the opponent is on a strong made hand or a draw when the action gets heavy. I am more likely to be passive on the flop and come alive on a blank turn in order to determine cheaply which holding the opponent has.

In response to the OP's preflop raise question, you either have to raise more or not at all. I think 15 preflop is good here.

pokerjoker
12-06-2005, 10:05 PM
bet pot or a bit less than pot on turn. Villians hand range IMO here in order of likelyhood

SC
KQ
AK (possibly suited)
KJ or worse
AA/QQ
JT (possibly suited)
bluff
Quad 5's


If he calls my turn bet I check fold.

xorbie
12-06-2005, 10:18 PM
Raise more PF, bet the flop, bet the turn but I would check the river.

iceman5
12-06-2005, 10:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I am assuming the preflop and flop are fine by everyone, I guess the only hand I am worrying about is 55.
One the turn, I am guessing I could have made it a little more, but I am still not giving correct odds to chase.
On the river, I thought that was a good blocking bet at the time, what should I really be afraid of here, KQ, doesn't that need to raise somewhere? When he pushes I figure I am probably behind but getting about 4-1 I thought it was worth a call and I had to see what it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling because you "had to see what it was" will cost you alot of money. Thats the very reason almsot everyone calls too much. Its human nature to want to know not only what he has but to know you didnt get bluffed.

Bet the turn harder and check/call the river depending on how much he bets.

SmackinYaUp
12-06-2005, 11:34 PM
I don't see a reason to be a whole lot more than 50-60 on the turn. The board is paired, most villains know by now not to chase flushes on paired boards, and even if he does, then he's got what, 5-1 against hitting it on the river?

Keep it small here on a paired board. If the turn wouldn't have paired the board the raise would have been there.

As played, I fold the river and move on. People don't bluff the river allin often enough after you've bet every street for you to call this.

pokerjoker
12-06-2005, 11:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am assuming the preflop and flop are fine by everyone, I guess the only hand I am worrying about is 55.
One the turn, I am guessing I could have made it a little more, but I am still not giving correct odds to chase.
On the river, I thought that was a good blocking bet at the time, what should I really be afraid of here, KQ, doesn't that need to raise somewhere? When he pushes I figure I am probably behind but getting about 4-1 I thought it was worth a call and I had to see what it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling because you "had to see what it was" will cost you alot of money. Thats the very reason almsot everyone calls too much. Its human nature to want to know not only what he has but to know you didnt get bluffed.



[/ QUOTE ]

Doing what iceman says here is probably the single best way to increase your winrate IMO.